Spanish Civil War GB II 33 and STILL growing!

[TonyTiger66]

While stash mining I came across the Eduard Dual Boxing I-16 so I'd very much like to join with one of them.

Given the amount of rubbish on the web are there any pitfalls with the SCW schemes as offered? I will build the other as the last Spanish scheme so that's well outside the GB scope.

Hi SleeperService! Great to have you on board- welcome !

I have an irrational fondness for I-16 (I am currently building three here on BM in 1/72), so this is great.

I don't usually build in 1/48 as I am restricted for space. I have read that this Eduard kit is good. Is it this one:?

http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/I-16-Type-10-over-Spain-DUAL-COMBO-1-48.html?listtype=search&searchparam=i-16

I don't have it, but I downloaded the instruction sheet and looked at the schemes. Eduard really offer some excellent options!

I particularly like the post-SCW grey and silver scheme.

In terms of the SCW schemes, they look well researched and are probably as accurate as any other profiles out there. I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for saying that, but colour film and colour photographs are rare. A certain amount of intuition and artistic licence has to be involved in the build of any of these little Moscas.

A scheme that causes great controversy, is the one suggested with completely red tail and horizontal stabilisers; CM-225. It also is suggested it has the extended black area from the cowl.

Many dispute many aspects of this interpretation of sources, nevertheless it is a stunning scheme and it would be rather excellent to see it built somewhere by someone !

JWM is 100% correct in terms of Network 54, WP and above all, the useful suggestion of using Spanish language in your searches, and also, I have found it useful to quote the matriculation number of the aircraft.

I am building at the moment CM-125 and my search: 'Casa Mosca I-16 CM-125' turned up an extremely useful photograph, so it's worth choosing an aircraft, then trying to find good pictures of it. It may be a process of finding the scheme that has the most reliable photographs, out of all the decal sets you have available.

It's a work of research, but it's very satisfying.

That kit looks very nice!

Best regards

Tony

[CliffB]

It's good to see this proposal steadily moving forward

I've found a couple of kits in my stash which come with SCW decals and which I don't think have mentioned so far in this thread. Here they are:

.

I'm not sure about the R-5 though. I seem to recall reading (I think on Britmodeller), that the R-5 wasn't in Spain, just the R-Z

Comments please!

Finally, I'm not sure specifically what you were referring to here Tony........

I had read the rules on trying to get people to join GB's and realised I couldn't try to 'market' it elsewhere in the forum.

but if it's the 'non canvassing for votes' clause, I believe that this only relates to individuals canvassing for support for their models in a GB Gallery vote (if it was something else that you'd seen in the rules then please just ignore me!).

Cheers

Cliff

[Botan]

By the wau, Black Lion Decals have nice 3 decal sheets from Spanish Civil War.

72051 Spanish Civil War - Nationalist Army
72052 Spanish Civil War - Republican Forces 1
72053 Spanish Civil War - Republican Forces 2

[SleeperService]

Thanks for the help and advice. The kit in my hands is the one you linked to. I was tending towards CM-193 but now you've drawn my attention to CM-225

Thanks for the search tips I shall get some searching done.

The Eduard special boxings usually have some great schemes but I think this one tops the lot. I hope this GB gets through. The site linked in post #7 shows a stunning array of subjects.

[TonyTiger66]

It's good to see this proposal steadily moving forward

I've found a couple of kits in my stash which come with SCW decals and which I don't think have mentioned so far in this thread. Here they are:

.

I'm not sure about the R-5 though. I seem to recall reading (I think on Britmodeller), that the R-5 wasn't in Spain, just the R-Z

Comments please!

Finally, I'm not sure specifically what you were referring to here Tony........

but if it's the 'non canvassing for votes' clause, I believe that this only relates to individuals canvassing for support for their models in a GB Gallery vote (if it was something else that you'd seen in the rules then please just ignore me!).

Cheers

Cliff

Hi Cliff and many thanks I had misunderstood the rules

All this time I thought it wasn't allowed to suggest to people they may be interested in a GB, when in fact, it meant the votes for individual models.

I'm very glad you pointed this out; I had very much wanted to suggest to a couple of people this GB; it would be good to see a certain 'tread head' perhaps doing a T-26 or BT-5, and a submariner would be very welcome. I will try my persuasive skills (guaranteed to scare people off ).

I happen to have that very same Omega Caudron C-59 Cliff. I also have a couple of photographs on Flikr of the aircraft in question; I'll make the album public so that you can see them.

I have been wanting to have a go at the kit for a few years now, but I've never made a resin biplane. Also, the struts in the kit confuse me; they are different lengths in my kit and slightly bent, whereas plans seem to suggest the same length for each strut and straight. What do you think?

I've been looking out for some airfoil shaped strut stock for years, plastic or metal 'strutz' but it seems no one makes it any more ?

Maybe I'm not looking in the right places. There would surely be a demand for such a product?

Yes, I can confirm many references state the R-5 was involved in the Spanish Civil War. I also have an *extremely* old version of that Encore kit. Mine has rub on transfers! I like that kit a lot. It is a bit like a Frog kit; sturdy and straightforward. It offers a lot of scope for extra detailing.

I bought a 'Mini Art' replacement gun and mount for it and reshaped the nose section. I then made a complete dogs dinner of the rigging. Then ruined the paintwork trying to strip off the CA I'd spilt on it from the rigging. Then completely blundered removing the remaining paint with oven cleaner and the wings fell off.

Ever the optimist, I still have it in the Drawer of Doom and honestly hope to bring it back to life. They look lovely once built: big !

There is much discussion on the type of R-5 in Spain. Some would argue only the 'Stormivik' versions were there, with additional downwards facing machine guns.

I don't feel the (few) photographs or references support this opinion and feel 'normal' R-5's were the main body of the proposed 31 employed. As with all things SCW, I again put my neck out here, it's just an opinion. Often people get into really heated arguments over such things, but we have to accept sources and opinions will always differ. It was, after all, such a tremendously complicated conflict on so many levels with materiel from the vast array of sources we see. Every now and then something thought 'mythical' appears in photographic proof, something thought 'firm' is convincingly disproven.

So many profiles exist, accounts of R-5's and even the (very) odd photo.

Wikipedia has a take here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_R-5

Suggesting the 'Rasante' as relegated to a night bomber, which references and profiles seem to support.

http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/pol_r-5.php

The R-Z 'Natacha' also served, it seems more prolifically, some surviving the war. Azur make a nice Natacha, but they forgot to change the dimensions of the lower wing. It's the only reason I haven't made it, it can be rectified, but it will need to be on a modelling day when ai have a lot of Mojo!

I would be just stunned to see the Caudron made Cliff. One of them was made up of components of two different aircraft and has almost half one colour scheme, half another!

Best regards and thanks again for setting me right on the .

Tony

Edited . Simply to simplify and not put my head *right* under the guillotine

Final edit: This profile;

Seems to concur very well with this photograph: (source as in red in photo, will be removed if requested):

It's just a opinion. The clothing, markings all seem very appropriate.

TT

[TonyTiger66]

By the wau, Black Lion Decals have nice 3 decal sheets from Spanish Civil War.

72051 Spanish Civil War - Nationalist Army72052 Spanish Civil War - Republican Forces 172053 Spanish Civil War - Republican Forces 2

Thanks Botan ! I didn't know about those. The Blindado decals look very good; I may have to get some of these. In fact I *will* have to get some of these

They have a really interesting range of decals for all kinds of subjects, plus take custom orders.

Very useful to know about

Best regards

Tony

[TonyTiger66]

Just as another resource folks, here's a link to a site (in Spanish) with some great profiles and information.

http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/Armas/AvBomb/AvBomb.htm

I'm not sure if we've mentioned the DC-1 and the DC-2s? Also the LGL-32, Renard 32, British Klemm Eagle, Romano R-82, Farman F-190, Northrop Delta, Vultee V-1, Junkers F13, Avro Tutor or Prefect?

Most of these are available in kit form, some easy to get, others not so easy.

I would love to see someone scratch build a Breguet Vultur, but I doubt it will happen. One can only hope...

Tony

[CliffB]

Thanks for the response to my post Tony.

The struts in my C.59 are two lengths too (it seems to be intentional). This is perhaps to be expected given that the aerofoil shape of the wings means that they are thicker at the front. Using the shorter struts at the front would allow the undersurfaces of the wings to remain parallel - that's my theory anyway! I've got a dwindling supply of brass Struz that I bought from Aeroclub some time ago. It could be worth checking with John Aero (on BM), if he has any stock remaining....

Unfortunately my C.59 kit is destined to become a Bolivian C.97 for my Chaco War collection (although typically, Omega have more recently issued a C.97 re-boxing complete with the correct decals!), so it won't be appearing as a SCW machine .

Interestingly, the Paraguayans captured a Bolivian Vickers E tank during the Chaco War and sold it to Spain. It was a small world even in the 1930s!

Cheers

Cliff

[Antoine]

I'm not sure if we've mentioned the DC-1 and the DC-2s? Also the LGL-32, Renard 32, British Klemm Eagle, Romano R-82, Farman F-190, Northrop Delta, Vultee V-1, Junkers F13, Avro Tutor or Prefect?

Most of these are available in kit form, some easy to get, others not so easy...

Tony

My preference goes to the Vultee at this time.

I really hope that everything will be set in time for me to participate.

[JWM]

Vultee V-1 ok - here it is:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234966172-vultee-v1a-and-v11-azur-172/

My Northrop Delta unfortunately I did from WWII -

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234965893-nothrop-delta-scratch-us-eritrea-1941/?hl=northrop

in many cases there is a kind of competition, which painting scheme choose and how compromise them, unfortunately....

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

[TonyTiger66]

My preference goes to the Vultee at this time.

I really hope that everything will be set in time for me to participate.

I hope so too Antoine I checked with Enzo and we still have a chance to get in the vote for 2017 if we can get 30 by November.

The Vultee is such an art-deco aircraft. Some that served in the SCW were still in a mainly natural metal finish, and with undercarriage up, look just stunning.

I have the Azur kit, I had difficulty with the cockpit canopy as, at the time I had never used a vac-form canopy. I ruined both .

I wrote to Special Hobby and they sent me a total of four sets, free postage, Czech Republic to Australia. Simply superb customer service !

It is still in a continual state of WIP as I got dust inside the fuselage, now closed, and it is on the inside of the windows. It's a nice kit and it goes together well, has a good weight and as JWM's link shows, it looks right. As a bomber it looks very mean !.

Good choice

Best regards

Tony

[TonyTiger66]

Thanks for the response to my post Tony.

The struts in my C.59 are two lengths too (it seems to be intentional). This is perhaps to be expected given that the aerofoil shape of the wings means that they are thicker at the front. Using the shorter struts at the front would allow the undersurfaces of the wings to remain parallel - that's my theory anyway! I've got a dwindling supply of brass Struz that I bought from Aeroclub some time ago. It could be worth checking with John Aero (on BM), if he has any stock remaining....

Unfortunately my C.59 kit is destined to become a Bolivian C.97 for my Chaco War collection (although typically, Omega have more recently issued a C.97 re-boxing complete with the correct decals!), so it won't be appearing as a SCW machine .

Interestingly, the Paraguayans captured a Bolivian Vickers E tank during the Chaco War and sold it to Spain. It was a small world even in the 1930s!

Thanks Cliff

Now, that does make sense with regard to the different length struts. The closest I have built to a biplane of this type was an old tool (but good) KP Letov S-16 around 14 years ago. I didn't think of using a jig and with the single piece struts I remember it was hard .

I will contact John and see if he can help, mine have a definite banana like shape to them which is not good, but now I can see how the different lengths should work.

The Gran Chaco is another fascinating conflict with many similar aircraft and other weapons to the Spanish conflict. I'm not very knowledgable on it, but I think like Spain, Potez XXV, Breguet 19 and a Junkers F 13 were involved?

If someone doesn't produce at least a decent limited run injection moulded Breguet 19 and Potez XXV soon, I may just have to break down and weep

AZ say they won't because Special Hobby have said they will, but the Special Hobby one seems to have been on hold for at least 5 years. We can only hope ....

It will be good to see a WIP of your C-97, these Omega kits look very nice and it would be great to see one built:)

ATB

Tony

[Antoine]

Vultee V-1 ok - here it is:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234966172-vultee-v1a-and-v11-azur-172/

My Northrop Delta unfortunately I did from WWII -

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234965893-nothrop-delta-scratch-us-eritrea-1941/?hl=northrop

in many cases there is a kind of competition, which painting scheme choose and how compromise them, unfortunately....

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

Hi Jerzy,

Those are very nice.

So far I don't have the V11, but is it on my shopping list (Strong interest in everything related to ROCAF).

The Gran Chaco is another fascinating conflict with many similar aircraft and other weapons to the Spanish conflict. I'm not very knowledgable on it, but I think like Spain, Potez XXV, Breguet 19 and a Junkers F 13 were involved?

Indeed, Tony, great subject.

But one that would struggle to get enough votes for a GB as a stand-alone subject, I fear.

In a wider "Small conflict" theme, perhaps?

About the Gran Chaco, here is your book. Dan Hagedorn as a co-author is an evidence!

[Botan]

If someone doesn't produce at least a decent limited run injection moulded Breguet 19 and Potez XXV soon, I may just have to break down and weep

They deserve a normal run though.

Indeed, Tony, great subject.

But one that would struggle to get enough votes for a GB as a stand-alone subject, I fear.

In a wider "Small conflict" theme, perhaps?

What about Interwar conflict? There was a lot of those between 1918 and 1939, many are quite forgotten. Whole Eastern Europe after Great War had several conflicts between a new states + rebelions and uprisings, I'm still finding a new ones, like Agiri Rebellion or Aviation on the Arabian Peninsula

There is a interwar GB here, together we could make it to 30.

[Antoine]

Make it to 30 is only the first of the difficulties.

It gets you to the vote.

Where your subject stand up in front of 15 to 20 other propositions.

I could be wrong (and hope to!), but it will never get farther than that.

One of the reason being that for most people, interwar certainly involve biplane, and many still consider it as a no-go.

This is the most difficult thing for a GB: Keeping the balance between a not-seen-too-often subejct, and its ability to mobilize peoples without being too vague.

[TonyTiger66]

Vultee V-1 ok - here it is:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234966172-vultee-v1a-and-v11-azur-172/

My Northrop Delta unfortunately I did from WWII -

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234965893-nothrop-delta-scratch-us-eritrea-1941/?hl=northrop

in many cases there is a kind of competition, which painting scheme choose and how compromise them, unfortunately....

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

Great models Jerzy-Wojtek! That is a very intricate paint job on the Vultee, and if I know you, it is done with great patience by hand....

I have two of the old style Dekno resin Northrop Delta and OOB it would be impossible to make them look like yours. This Delta by the old Dekno (new is totally different and superior) is probably one of their worst kits; they made some good ones, but the Delta would take a *lot* of work OOB.

But now you have given me an idea. Possibly the mai problem with the Dekno kit is the wings; they are not correct. Your resin cast of the Williams Bros. Gamma is a fantastic idea! Join these wings to the Dekno fuselage and the main problem is solved

Still yours would end up looking better because the fuselage resin is very thick and the windows will be hard to achieve in a scale frame appearance .

This is another aircraft that needs an injection moulded kit. The Delta would have appeal to all Golden Era, Canadian, American, British, SCW and civil enthusiasts. Azur/Special Hobby have suitable wings already, I feel I will be writing a letter to them soon about at least three inter-war aircraft!

We have done well to get 15 in such a fast time. It would be a nice idea to show support for the inter-war GB. We should try to push both through. The SCW is essentially the prelude to WWII, the testing ground for the Soviets, Nazis and Fascists. In this sense I truly believe that it deserves a GB.

Nevertheless it is inter 'world-war' and thus to give support for an inter-war build is really appropriate. I for one would love to model something from the Poland - Russia conflict, learn about Chaco, even do a clandestine Hungarian aircraft.

Just my 5 pence/cents worth

Onto some aircraft we haven't mentioned: Breda 25, 39 and 64. All available from the excellent Mr. Choroszy, an all round gifted artisan and producer of some if he finest 1/72 kits in resin, pre prepared, for a very reasonable price. His customer support is outstanding too.

http://modelbud.home.pl/mobile/pl/p/A157-Breda-25/280

http://modelbud.home.pl/mobile/pl/p/A108-Breda-39/231

http://modelbud.home.pl/mobile/pl/p/A79-Breda-64-Biposto/203

Also from Choroszy an OOB complete with decals FIAT CR20. G8 and Caproni CR-100 are quite lovely.

http://modelbud.home.pl/mobile/pl/p/A75-Fiat-CR-20/193

http://modelbud.home.pl/mobile/pl/p/A96-Fiat-G8/219

http://modelbud.home.pl/mobile/pl/p/A22-Caproni-Ca.100/114

Talking of Breda, the PzKpfwAusf A with Breda gun conversion is unique to the SCW. Only one photograph exists, but it has been kitted in 1/72 by Attack

http://attack-kits.eu/en/plastic-kits-172/122-pzkpfw-i-ausf-a-breda-2cm.html

and in 1/35 by Masterbox:

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/132986-master-box-ltd-t3503-panzerkampfwagen-1-ausf-a-breda

Both a very nice kits

Meanwhile back in the league of easily obtained and nice to build aircraft kits, I would suggest the Italeri FIAT CR32, recently re-released with a wealth of new decals, the ICM Heinkel He-51 available OOB and as SCW and cheaper than the ageing Hasegawa, the recently released Airfix Stuka B-1 and the RPM BF-109 E1.

The Airfix BF-109 E also looks eminently suitable as an E-3 or with tiny conversion, as an E-1.

1/48 scale is well covered for SCW HE-51 and BF 109 E, also BF 108, of which Fky also make a very nice kit in 1/72, with a nicer overall profile than the older but still completely viable Heller kit.

The Heller FW Stosser and Caudron Simoun are both SCW friendly kits!

People may have these and eg Airfix or other He 123, Matchbox, Italeri or Airfix He 126, and not even realise they are SCW subjects

Keep the suggestions coming in folks, any field artillery or naval information most welcome.

Best regards

Tony

[Moggy]

I'm in. I have a pile of SCW aircraft waiting in my stash - together with books...

[TonyTiger66]

I'm in. I have a pile of SCW aircraft waiting in my stash - together with books...

From one feline to another; welcome Moggy ! . I love to hear about SCW stashes. Books are lovely, they can be very expensive too. I recently got the Miranda and Mercado book through AbeBooks from a shop in Madrid. It's a lovely book, but probably the most I've ever paid for one ! I don't think I'll tell Mrs. Tiger how much it was.

If you would like to tell us a bit about your stash, please do. Curiosity won't kill these cats!

Best regards and many thanks

Tony

[TonyTiger66]

This is a VERY useful link.

Just to re-affirm; the link above is very useful indeed. Many thanks to Antoine for this one; absorbing and fascinating.

Best regards

Tony

[TonyTiger66]

New kits!

RSModels have recently released an Avro/Cierva C 30 Autogyro with markings adaptable to SCW OOB. An Azur kit is also available, they are utterly different kits. The RS looks easier to build:

http://rsmodels.cz/galerie/produkty/92189/pks5f72edn_large.jpg

RS also soon release a Bucker 131A Jungmann, again a perfect SCW subject and very welcome now the Huma kit is OOP:

http://rsmodels.cz/galerie/produkty/92192/d5m3spqrmm_large.jpg

For a long time RS have sold the Arado 66 with SCW decals.

For those that think the 'third Klemm' was a 35B (one fairly supportive photo exists), AZ released one earlier this year and it's a lovely kit:

AModel said they would release their Dornier Wal kit in SCW schemes this year. Even if they don't, it seems the parts are in the kit to build an appropriate variant.

Best regards

Tony

[Antoine]

Just to re-affirm; the link above is very useful indeed. Many thanks to Antoine for this one; absorbing and fascinating.

Best regards

Tony

Thanks Tony,

I can't remember exactly, but I've came upon this webpage maybe ten years ago, and it's even older.

But see, no update since 2008, that's no good news...

Anyway, it's still THE net reference on SCW, to me at least.

Now, what about some paper references?

[Antoine]

Somes "aces books".

[Antoine]

Bio.

[Antoine]

Air forces & units.

[CliffB]

If someone doesn't produce at least a decent limited run injection moulded Breguet 19 and Potez XXV soon, I may just have to break down and weep

AZ say they won't because Special Hobby have said they will, but the Special Hobby one seems to have been on hold for at least 5 years. We can only hope ....

It will be good to see a WIP of your C-97, these Omega kits look very nice and it would be great to see one built:)

ATB

Tony

Hi Tony

The one Omega kit that I've actually made, just happens to be their Breguet XIX (there is a build thread here).

The main issue (which seems to blight all of Omega's kits), is their crude representation of ribbing. On the Breguet, I 'solved' this simply by sanding it all off. I regret though not making the effort to re-instate some detail - it doesn't look right as it is ,

On a brighter note, the Breguet kit does include some very nice resin spoked wheels. Unfortunately these are not included in all of their kits (the C-59 being an example!).

Well done with this thread

Cliff