Hurricane P3886 - uniqe fabric wing?

[JTB]

Hallo guys,
I have a bit weird question, but I'll explain that. There is a very famous picture of a Hurricane Mk.I and its TR9 being adjusted. It was taken by F/Lt Stanley Devon, an official photographer, on his visit at Exeter AF in November 1940.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209989

Obviously on the same visit F/Lt Stanley Devon took another shot of 601 Squadron Hurricane. It depicts a Mk.I, s/n P3886.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205194292

Ok, no wonder until now, but matching these two pictures together (I have never seen them linked) I became sure that these two a/c are the same. Both have the same, very distinctive "chipping" on and in front of the canopy, fuselage roundel has the same traces of dirt and even the antenna between fuselage and mast looks equally curved.

What wonderes me is the fact that the first picture clearly shows the fabric wing type gun bay. P3886 was produced by Hawker around May 1940 (ca. 400th out of 544 in third Hawker's batch). I always thought metal wings to be a standard issue in that time. http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

Having a closer look on the second picture I dare to say that there are possibly the fabric type ribs too. And also a landing light is in a position where it should be on a ragwing.

Is there any reasonable explanation for this?

Edited July 17, 2016 by JTB

[Ed Russell]

Thinking like a librarian, I think one also is the same.......

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205359304

and these most probably are too.........

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205212594

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205212596

[JTB]

Thank you, Ed. The first one clearly is of the same set, but the latter two are of a different one. One depicts Ian Gleed of 87 squadron and second one was taken also with this unit (note the LK-A code). This was another squadron based at the same time in Exeter, which is a good explanation.

Obviously F/Lt Devon travelled around the AF visiting all units based there. Hurricanes of 87 Sq seem to be slightly differently positioned acording to terrain and shades.

This may be another hint for my theory: the P3886 was considered a war weary old warrior that was already not frequently used. Maybe that's why thay took away its tin wings - and it was also a reason they gave it to the visiting photographer "to play" with it. :-)

[Mike Starmer]

You are probably correct on all counts. For potential media presentation, it was usual for the A.M. to make available a single aircraft with some personnel and allow the photographer to take his pictures from several angles, posing the personnel as required, which seems to case here. The authorities were careful that nothing else in the background or frame might be of value to an enemy which is why only the one machine was used, often tucked away in a corner of the airfield. These type of pictures were often printed in 'Flight' and 'The ATC Gazette' magazines and others too, in many cases with the background censored out.

[JTB]

Now the biggest question: how got a mid-1940 production Hurricane paired with obviously inferior fabric wings? Is it possible that it got like this already from Hawker? Or was it immediate solution done by the ground crew? Was there ever a metal wing Hurricane that later became a fabric winged one?

Greetings from Prague, by the way.

Edited July 17, 2016 by JTB

[Troy Smith]

ROYAL AIR FORCE FIGHTER COMMAND, 1939-1945.. © IWM (CH 1636)IWM Non Commercial Licence

well spotted JTB

I'd suggest a local replacement, note the panel the mechanic is sitting on is fabric covered in fabric wing planes,

and this is metal in the photo P3886

A couple of other interesting details, note the shield round the windscreen mirror and the bead sight looks different ?

ROYAL AIR FORCE FIGHTER COMMAND, 1939-1945.. © IWM (CH 1638)IWM Non Commercial Licence

in the zoom-able pic on the IWM site the plane has quite a few patches, so an in field repair seems to be the best explanation?

Thanks for posting this.

cheers

T

[JTB]

Thank you, Troy, it is also a very good hint. However I also suspect Hawker of changing the inner part in the process. See that difference in shade?

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/50/media-50548/large.jpg

However, as late as L2047 it was clearly still fabric.

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/295/media-295650/large.jpg

Edited July 17, 2016 by JTB

[tonyot]

Just an observation and without checking the files for any accidents etc,....but the aircraft also has a brand new looking Rotol propeller which doesn`t match the weathered look of the rest of the airframe,...... so maybe it had belly landed and damaged its outer wings (or even just one wing),.... necessitating their replacement with a set of spare fabric wings from the station stores or from an old hack?

Cheers

Tony

[JTB]

Just an observation and without checking the files for any accidents etc,....but the aircraft also has a brand new looking Rotol propeller which doesn`t match the weathered look of the rest of the airframe,...... so maybe it had belly landed and damaged its outer wings (or even just one wing),.... necessitating their replacement with a set of spare fabric wings from the station stores or from an old hack?

Cheers

Tony

What longer I watch these pictures the more obsessed I am about that aircraft. The propeller has not even the tips painted in yellow - and see that red patch that was usually sticked onto the gunports? It has clearly not been shot through - but looks quite old, as if the aircraft had not been into a combat for a long time. That would also suggest this was a backup aircraft.

[Simon]

Just an observation and without checking the files for any accidents etc,....but the aircraft also has a brand new looking Rotol propeller which doesn`t match the weathered look of the rest of the airframe,...... so maybe it had belly landed and damaged its outer wings (or even just one wing),.... necessitating their replacement with a set of spare fabric wings from the station stores or from an old hack?

Cheers

Tony

F K Mason's Hawker Hurricane - an Illustrated History, page 227:

Hurricane P3886 - No. 601 Sqn, Exeter, 10-40; damaged in landing accident, 15-10-40, but repaired; P/O J. W. Seddon unhurt. No. 1 Sqn, Kenley, 1-41.

Perhaps the 601 Sqn ORB may yield more details?

Simon

EDIT - however, my (1982 edition) copy of Battle of Britain Then and Now, page 511 has Seddon in V6666 on that date - crashed on landing undercarriage not locked, 6.40pm. Pilot Officer J W Seddon. Aircraft damaged but repairable.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Simon

[303sqn]

The radiator and underneath of the fuselage appear to be painted black and the metal just behind the prop has not been painted.

[JTB]

The radiator and underneath of the fuselage appear to be painted black and the metal just behind the prop has not been painted.

That ring behind the prop was like this also on Taffy Clowes's P3395. I would guess it was bare aluminium that got completely stripped of color. Perhaps a badly airbrushed in the factory, as both these aircraft were of the same batch?

http://zoom.iwm.org.uk/view/52949&cat=photographs&oid=object-205209981

[tango98]

Regarding the Hurricane centre section; according to copies of original Hawker documents that I have here state that because of the walkway areas on the top of the centre section and the installation of the main fuel tanks the surface was metal covered with the centre section ribs being of heavier gauge than those of the outer wing sections.

Also, to confirm Tonys' comment about replacement wings, even towards the end of 1940 and while not too common, it was by no means unknown for fabric outer wing panels being used to replace damaged stressed skin ones until replacements became available. However, when such instances occurred and even if only one stressed skin wing was damaged, both outer sections and not just one were to be replaced by fabric ones (if available) until metal outer sections became available.

HTH

Cheers

Dave

[noelh]

Nick Millman in this thread http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234931483-fabric-wing-hurricane-question/quoted Camm's book

"(The metal wing) was embodied in the bulk of the production aircraft and was interchangeable with the fabric-covered wing. Its design and method of construction was completely new and the inevitable delays in its introduction initially were overcome by continued production of the fabric wing."

So if P3886 was damaged in October that would fit in with the photo clearly showing a new propeller in November and possibly explain the fabric wings.

It would definitely make an interesting model. Are their any decals I wonder?

[Junchan]

The P3886 is one of 500 metal wing Mk. Is built by Hawker Aircraft Ltd. in 1940 under Contract No. 962371/38.

Source: The Hawker Hurricane by Francis K. Mason

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[JTB]

Nick Millman in this thread http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234931483-fabric-wing-hurricane-question/quoted Camm's book

So if P3886 was damaged in October that would fit in with the photo clearly showing a new propeller in November and possibly explain the fabric wings.

It would definitely make an interesting model. Are their any decals I wonder?

I'm concerned about the same. We need to know what was the code - photos suggest both UF-R od UF-K. I have the 1990's decals from Revell's Mk.IIB in my spares - with the code UF-Y in Sky grey, which would be a decent start.

[occa]

...

cheers

T

Excuse me for the side drift ...

I thought the panel behind the gun bays that has the ragged fabric was supposed to be metal with fabric wings ?

Everyone was suggesting to sand of the ribs when the new 1/72 Airfix Hurricane came out ...

[JimHead23]

Excuse me for the side drift ...

I thought the panel behind the gun bays that has the ragged fabric was supposed to be metal with fabric wings ?

Everyone was suggesting to sand of the ribs when the new 1/72 Airfix Hurricane came out ...

The next panel to the right is the one behind the gun bay I believe.

Regards

Jim

[occa]

The next panel to the right is the one behind the gun bay I believe.

Regards

Jim

Ah you're right, I must have misunderstood, the panel that is closer to the fuselage has to stay in fabric

[noelh]

I'm concerned about the same. We need to know what was the code - photos suggest both UF-R od UF-K. I have the 1990's decals from Revell's Mk.IIB in my spares - with the code UF-Y in Sky grey, which would be a decent start.

Well a preserved Hurricane was painted as P3886 and they used K. Take from that what you will.

[noelh]

I'm concerned about the same. We need to know what was the code - photos suggest both UF-R od UF-K. I have the 1990's decals from Revell's Mk.IIB in my spares - with the code UF-Y in Sky grey, which would be a decent start.

Well a preserved Hurricane was painted as P3886 and they used K. Also the official caption of the photos says K. But the photos are inconclusive.

[Black Knight]

On full length picture; no roundel under the wing; not consistent with post mid-August '40

Perhaps it was an old machine which had become a Maintenance Airframe, had its M series number replaced with a P number just for the photographs.

[JTB]

On full length picture; no roundel under the wing; not consistent with post mid-August '40

Perhaps it was an old machine which had become a Maintenance Airframe, had its M series number replaced with a P number just for the photographs.

This is an interesting idea, but having been so, why would they have a scarce Rotol prop on it? And the same for a full radio set? I do not think that they would spend so much time fitting these things back just for a picture. Easier would be using some sort of...backup a/c.

[Black Knight]

Was the Rotol scarce in November '40?

M frames were kept for all trades to train and learn on. It wouldn't be unusual for one to have full radio and instrumentation and a couple or a full wing compliment of [retired] mgs.

[JTB]

Was the Rotol scarce in November '40?

M frames were kept for all trades to train and learn on. It wouldn't be unusual for one to have full radio and instrumentation and a couple or a full wing compliment of [retired] mgs.

As mentioned above:

F K Mason's Hawker Hurricane - an Illustrated History, page 227:

Hurricane P3886 - No. 601 Sqn, Exeter, 10-40; damaged in landing accident, 15-10-40, but repaired; P/O J. W. Seddon unhurt. No. 1 Sqn, Kenley, 1-41.

Had it been re-serialed, it would have been noticed here. And further, would they send an instructional airframe to another operational Squadron? All that looks suspicious.

Edited July 17, 2016 by JTB