Hurricane P3886 - uniqe fabric wing?

[JTB]

We have found good clues, but this story of a damaged old warrior that got replacement ragwings needs to be verified. Do any of us have the access to 601 squadron ORB? They seem to be preserved at leat in the UK's National Archive, which is too far away for me...

[tonyot]

We have found good clues, but this story of a damaged old warrior that got replacement ragwings needs to be verified. Do any of us have the access to 601 squadron ORB? They seem to be preserved at leat in the UK's National Archive, which is too far away for me...

Most can be found on line now from the NRO website,...... they cost around £4 and are an excellent reference source.

Cheers

Tony

[Selwyn]

ROYAL AIR FORCE FIGHTER COMMAND, 1939-1945.. © IWM (CH 1636)IWM Non Commercial Licence

well spotted JTB

I'd suggest a local replacement, note the panel the mechanic is sitting on is fabric covered in fabric wing planes,

and this is metal in the photo P3886

A couple of other interesting details, note the shield round the windscreen mirror and the bead sight looks different ?

ROYAL AIR FORCE FIGHTER COMMAND, 1939-1945.. © IWM (CH 1638)IWM Non Commercial Licence

in the zoom-able pic on the IWM site the plane has quite a few patches, so an in field repair seems to be the best explanation?

Thanks for posting this.

cheers

T

Looks like this aircraft is fitted with ring and bead sight, and the bead is a (Norman?) Vane type , never seen one on a Hurricane before.

[mhaselden]

We have found good clues, but this story of a damaged old warrior that got replacement ragwings needs to be verified. Do any of us have the access to 601 squadron ORB? They seem to be preserved at leat in the UK's National Archive, which is too far away for me...

I'd be very surprised if the ORB contained any information relative to this question. Content varies widely and unless 601 Sqn's ORB author was unusually diligent or detail-obsessed, I can't see any reason for recording specifically why one of the Squadron's aircraft would have had a wing change. That's part of routine maintenance and so wouldn't normally be recorded in the 540. The only exception would be if metal wings were in such short supply that a large percentage of the Squadron's aircraft had to be re-winged with older fabric units...but this airframe seems to be an exception rather than part of a wider pattern (and, even then, comments in the 540 might be more generic rather than relating to this specific airframe).

[JTB]

I'd be very surprised if the ORB contained any information relative to this question. Content varies widely and unless 601 Sqn's ORB author was unusually diligent or detail-obsessed, I can't see any reason for recording specifically why one of the Squadron's aircraft would have had a wing change. That's part of routine maintenance and so wouldn't normally be recorded in the 540. The only exception would be if metal wings were in such short supply that a large percentage of the Squadron's aircraft had to be re-winged with older fabric units...but this airframe seems to be an exception rather than part of a wider pattern (and, even then, comments in the 540 might be more generic rather than relating to this specific airframe).

I just wanted to know how much was the P3886 used in those months - if it was a first-choice or a backup a/c. That would possibly show the motivation of that replacement.

[mhaselden]

I just wanted to know how much was the P3886 used in those months - if it was a first-choice or a backup a/c. That would possibly show the motivation of that replacement.

Alas, it still may not help. Each squadron had a number of Immediate Reserve (IR) aircraft that were officially there to back-fill when first-line aircraft were damaged or went in for major servicing. However, it's hard to identify from unit records which aircraft were first-line and which were IR because the IR airframes weren't managed separately at the squadron level. According to the official rosters, a fighter squadron may have 12 Initial Equipment (IE) and 6 IR airframes but they would be managed as a squadron of 18 aircraft with all available aircraft being flown as needed to meet the operational need. Some might be flown more than others but the reasons for that usage could be many - servicing, repainting, fabric re-covering etc - that may have nothing to do with whether or not an individual airframe was a reserve.

[ClaudioN]

On 7/17/2016 at 5:01 AM, JTB said:

What wonders me is the fact that the first picture clearly shows the fabric wing type gun bay. P3886 was produced by Hawker around May 1940 (ca. 400th out of 544 in third Hawker's batch). I always thought metal wings to be a standard issue in that time. http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

Having a closer look on the second picture I dare to say that there are possibly the fabric type ribs too. And also a landing light is in a position where it should be on a ragwing.

Is there any reasonable explanation for this?

Checking on another "unexplicable" late fabric-winged Hurricane (V7203) I hit upon "British Military Aircraft Serials" by Bruce Robertson. There, P3886 is listed among 50 Hurricanes produced with fabric-covered wings. Serials were interspersed among the production run of 500 Hurricanes (so, 10% had fabric wings).

 

By the way, the Hawker contract  actually referred to 524 aircraft, that is, 500 plus 24 attrition replacements. In his serial list Mason added to that total a batch of 20 Hurricanes, T9519-T9538, that were actually built by Canadian Car and Foundry, ostensibly as "attrition replacements" for the Hurricanes of No. 1 Sqn. RCAF (No. 401 Sqn.).

Interestingly, even among the 24 attrition replacements a further 7 are given as having fabric-covered wings.

 

ROYAL AIR FORCE FIGHTER COMMAND, 1939-1945.. © IWM (CH 1638) IWM Non Commercial License

 

HTH

 

Claudio

Edited January 26, 2019 by ClaudioN

[gingerbob]

On 7/17/2016 at 9:09 AM, Simon said:

F K Mason's Hawker Hurricane - an Illustrated History, page 227:

Hurricane P3886 - No. 601 Sqn, Exeter, 10-40; damaged in landing accident, 15-10-40, but repaired; P/O J. W. Seddon unhurt. No. 1 Sqn, Kenley, 1-41.

Perhaps the 601 Sqn ORB may yield more details?

Simon

EDIT - however, my (1982 edition) copy of Battle of Britain Then and Now, page 511 has Seddon in V6666 on that date - crashed on landing undercarriage not locked, 6.40pm. Pilot Officer J W Seddon. Aircraft damaged but repairable.

 

Seddon flew both aircraft on 15 October, but it was apparently V6666 that was damaged.  P3886 continues to be flown through October AND November (though I admit I didn't scan the whole of November, just checked first few days and the end of the month).

[Troy Smith]

Looking at the images by the photographer on the IWM site

another from the sequence?

 

THE ROYAL AIR FORCE IN BRITAIN DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (CH 1624) IWM Non Commercial License

 

[melvyn hiscock]

Http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209989

Obviously on the same visit F/Lt Stanley Devon took another shot of 601 Squadron Hurricane. It depicts a Mk.I, s/n P3886.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205194292

 

ever since I saw the second of these photos (that with it being just gone 6.30 in the morning I’ve given up trying to copy in any other way) I have always thought it looked false. Nothing to do with anything Hurricaney, like wheels, fabric, radio, depth of mud on fitters boots, no of Rivets on the squadron dog or which anorak the admirable Troy is wearing, but the exposure of the background. I don’t, for a minute think it has been amended with 1940s Photoshop (ie scratching and white paint on the negative) but somehow the atmospherics ( a bit of fog perhaps) just makes it look a bit ‘pantomime backdrop (all together now: ‘oh no it doesn’t’). It is one of things that I just notice every time I see it. If there was a pantomime cow grazing in the fields in the background I would not be surprised!

 

This will make even less sense to our foreign reader colleagues who will have no idea at all about the tradition of Pantomine in the British Theatre

[Ed Russell]

The ORB for 601, judging by the few pages from Nov 1940 I have read, is one of the less informative ones - both the 540 and AIR-27. It records serials (and P3886 is in there) but not codes. A sortie is recorded as "Operational take off" , "Patrol" or  similar. The Summary of Events is one line per day. Accidents are recorded by pilot name but not aircraft.

[Glen]

The camouflage on the leading edge wraps around much further on the inboard section of the wing (to just outboard of the gear) possibly suggesting that they were replaced after it had been painted?

[Troy Smith]

24 minutes ago, Glen said:

The camouflage on the leading edge wraps around much further on the inboard section of the wing (to just outboard of the gear) possibly suggesting that they were replaced after it had been painted?

 

looks to be the gun port patches.  The outer wing attaches immediately outboard of the UC legs.

[Troy Smith]

also, I don't think this is linked,  but a thread here on a fairly late Mk.I with a fabric wing.  

Well worth a read.  Condensed version, seems there were some random Mk.I's with fabric wings later than is usually thought.

 

[Glen]

15 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

looks to be the gun port patches.  The outer wing attaches immediately outboard of the UC legs.

I should have looked closer!

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 13:01, JTB said:

What wonderes me is the fact that the first picture clearly shows the fabric wing type gun bay. P3886 was produced by Hawker around May 1940 (ca. 400th out of 544 in third Hawker's batch). I always thought metal wings to be a standard issue in that time. http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

Having a closer look on the second picture I dare to say that there are possibly the fabric type ribs too. And also a landing light is in a position where it should be on a ragwing.

Is there any reasonable explanation for this?

Yes, P3886 was built with fabric wings.

 

In theory N2426 was the last mark I rolled out of Hawker Brooklands with fabric wings, taken on charge 26 October 1939.  Then came the emergency of mid 1940.  So from early June 1940 and into July a number of Brooklands built Hurricanes are marked as having Fabric Wings in the RAF contract cards, namely

 

P3714 to P3717, P3737 to P3739, P3755, P3757 to P3761, P3767, P3768, P3770 to P3774, P3854, P3858 to P3869, P3872 to P3875, P3882 to P3890, P3897, P8816 to P8818, R2680, R2681, V7200 to V7209, V7222, V7224 to V7235, V7276, V7281.

 

P3886 arrived at 10 MU 24 June 1940, 601 Squadron 12 July 1940, 50 (MU?) 43 Group 9 December 1940, (unreadable) SAS 11 December 1940, 25 MU 23 December 1940, 1 Squadron 2 February 1941, 59 OTU 14 March 1941, Arrived India 19 April? 1944, SOC 25 September 1944.

 

Battle of Britain Then and Now has P3886 damaged on 26 July 1940 with 601 squadron, due to engine trouble.

 

Geoffrey Sinclair

[Graham Boak]

I find it interesting that 607 Sq was equipped with P3xxx Hurricanes replacing their Gladiators at the end of April 1940, but received none of these individuals despite having a squadron load of assorted serials around them.  This suggests that they were sidetracked into MUs or training units.  A couple of these aircraft do appear on 607's books later in 1940, when it was being rebuilt initially as a training/second-line unit back in the North East, and these are second-hand aircraft from other units.  One of them lasted long enough to be transferred with the unit south but w/o in a collision early in September, but I don't have dates for the other, only that it was passed onto another unit.  By then of course they may have been rewinged.

[Troy Smith]

17 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

P3854

That one jumped out at me, as it is VY-Q,( famed as being one of the options for many years in the 1/24th Airfix kit),  it's  part of a very famous series of photos  is the lead plane in this 85 Sq shot, 

 

and this

 

if you enlarge the photo, and look carefully, VY-Q can be seen to have 5 underwing slots and landing lights on bay  inboard compared to the planes either side, clearer if you look at the landing light compared to the slots actually....

here's an enlarged crop

 

the difference in position and size of the underwing roundels is also of note, the rear plane showing the correct factory applied size and position.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

16 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

This suggests that they were sidetracked into MUs or training units.

Maybe, but we now have example of 4 fabric winged Hurricanes, with Spitfire Rotols,  in squadron use.

Subject of this thread, P3886

 

17 Sq YB-F in July 1940 (in V7203 thread)

this one

V7203 (thread linked) 

 

and P3854 (above)

 

the 3 with serials are listed as being built with fabric wings, and went into squadron service with fabric wings, and in P3854 case, was the C/O's, Peter Townsend,  plane.

 

Also, in Hurricane at War 2,  page 24, there is an interview with Don Stones, where he states that the fabric wing Hurricane, "I had the oldest aeroplane in the squadron which was a Hurricane I with a fixed wooden airscrew and fabric wings, L1716, It tended to a long time to off the ground, it was jolly good when you got it off the ground, very light, and i always thought it more manoeuvrable than the tin-winged ones"

 

And this a one with a fixed wooden prop, not a constant speed Rotol unit.

 

Which leads to an  interesting point, that in the case of VY-Q, perhaps Townsend picked this because it had fabric wings? 

 

I wonder if @tango98  has anything on this?

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

First unit issued to other than initial delivery to Maintenance Unit, also second unit if there was a quick reassignment, and when officially lost.  Issue dates generally seem similar to other Hurricanes with nearby serials.  Some of the entries are hard to read, so if people have better dates please post them.
P3714, 253 Sqn 12 June 1940, 1 CRU?/4 MU 4? September 1940, later became mark II DR341, Russia
P3715, 238 Sqn 18 June 1940, 19 MU 20 Jun 1940, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 30 Jun 1943
P3716, 229 Sqn 4 June 1940, 15 MU 2 July 1940, SOC 1 Apr 1942
P3717, 238 Sqn 18 June 1940, 19 MU 20 June 1940, 253 Sqn 13 July 1940, later became mark II DR348, Russia
P3737, 605 Sqn 3 July 1940, SOC 1 November 1940
P3738, RAF Station? ?llck 5 July 1940, 232 Sqn 21 July 1940, SOC 22 Sep 1940
P3739, Transferred from 22 to 5 MU 16 August 1940, 141 Sqn 20 August 1940, SOC 16 March 1942
P3755, 87 Sqn 25 June 1940, SOC 27 December 1940
P3757, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940
P3758, 73 Sqn 21 June 1940, SOC 2 September 1940.
P3759, 245 Sqn 26 June 1940, became mark II DR349, Russia.
P3760, CFF 11 June 1940, SOC 19 August 1940
P3761, 245 Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 29 December 1941
P3767, 238 Sqn 11 July 1940, 263 Sqn 15 JUly 1940, SOC 1 April 1941
P3768, transferred from 20 to 47 MU 14 August 1940, Middle East, "Unknown Destination" 9 November 1940
P3770, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, 504 Sqn 16 August 1940, SOC 11 September 1940.
P3771, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, Rolls Royce 20 July 1940, SOC 31 May 1943
P3772, 3 Sqn 12 July 1940, 504 Sqn 14 September 1940, SOC 27 May 1941
P3773, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, no further information
P3774, 3 Sqn 12 July 1940, 504 Sqn 14 September 1940, SOC 21 September 1940
P3854, 7 OTU 17 June 1940, 5 OTU 13 August 1940, SOC 22 May 1941
P3858, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 18 September 1940
P3859, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 19 September 1940
P3860, 607 Sqn 4 July 1940, SOC 8 October 1940
P3861, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 5 March 1945
P3862, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, CAT E 30 May 1944
P3863, 73 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC June 1944
P3864, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, AMDP 19 August 1940, 242 Sqn 25 August 1940, SOC 17 January 1941
P3865, 73 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 23 September 1940
P3866, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 12 May 1941
P3867, 302 Sqn 27 July 1940, SOC 4 March 1941
P3868, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 13 September 1942
P3869, 1 RCAF Sqn 22 July 1940, SOC 31 August 1940
P3872, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 June 1940, SOC 2 November 1940
P3873, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 July 1940, SOC 10 October 1940
P3874, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 July 1940, SOC 2 September 1940
P3875, 111 Sqn 18 July 1940, SOC 2 September 1940
P3882, 151 Sqn 2 July 1940, SOC 30 September 1940
P3883, 1 RACF Sqn 11 July 1940, SOC 19 November 1940
P3884, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, SOC 31 December 1946
P3885, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
P3886, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, SOC 28 September 1944
P3887, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, SOC 1 September 1940
P3888, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, SOC 11 September 1940
P3889, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, SOC 1 November 1940
P3890, 257 Sqn 9 August 1940, 303 Sqn 10 August 1940, SOC 8 September 1940
P3897, 1 Sqn 12 August 1940, SOC 11 September 1940
P8816, 501 Sqn 7 August 1940, SOC 26 November 1940
P8817, Transferred from 5 to 50? MU 22 August 1940, sold to South Africa the same day.
P8818, 601 Sqn 25 July 1940, SOC 23 September 1940
R2680, 238 Sqn 7 August 1940, SOC 27 April 1943
R2681, 238 Sqn 8 August 1940, SOC 27 November 1944
V7200, 79 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 14? September? 1940?
V7201, 46 Sqn 12 July 1940, CAT E 27 May 1944
V7202, 46 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 31 December 1940
V7203, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 30 January 1941
V7204, 87 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 4 January 1941
V7205, 32 Sqn 24 July 1940, SOC 12 August 1940
V7206, 43 Sqn 23 July 1940, SOC 27 January 1941
V7207, 87 Sqn 13 July 1940, To FAA, Cat E 13 October 1944
V7208, 213 Sqn 23 July 1940, SOC 28 September 1944
V7209, 73 Sqn 23 July 1940, Robin Sites? (Ship name?) 8 April 1941
V7222, 111 Sqn 14 August 1940, 13 MU 27 August 1940 for repairs, SOC 22 November 1942
V7224, 213 Sqn 14 August 1940, CAT E 30 September 1943
V7225, 87 Sqn 14 August 1940, SOC 26 August 1941
V7226, 87? Sqn 12 Aug 1940, 213 Sqn same day, SOC 30 September 1940
V7227, 87 Sqn 13 August 1940, 213 Sqn 13 August 1940, SOC 22 August 1940
V7228, 87 Sqn 13 August 1940, 213 Sqn same day, SOC August 1940
V7229, 601 Sqn 9 July 1940, no loss date given
V7230, 501 Sqn 3 August 1940, SOC 4 January 1941
V7231, 87 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
V7232, 46 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 11 Oct 1940
V7233, 87 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
V7234, 501 Sqn 3 August 1940, converted to Mark II DG617
V7235, 267 Sqn 9 August 1940, 303 Sqn 10 August 1940, SOC 31 May 1941
V7276, transferred from 5 to 47 MU 3 August 1940, South Africa 20 August 1940
V7281, transferred from 5 to 47 MU 7 August 1940, South Africa 20 August 1940

 

Early Hurricane contracts summary, when some orders were still being fulfilled, numbers ordered and built                    
Requisition \ Contract \ Maker \ Order \ I \ II \ IIA \ IIB \ IIC \ Sea \ Notes
26/36 \ 527112/36 \ Hawker \ 580 \ 580 \  \  \  \  \  \ Includes 60 for other governments.  Completed 8 Nov 1939
215/38 \ 966177/38 \ Hawker \ 20 \ 20 \  \  \  \  \  \ For Canada, originally part of contract 527112/36
195/38 \ B19773/39 \ Gloster \ 100 \ 100 \  \  \  \  \  \ Completed 9 Aug 1940
195/38 \ 962371/38 \ Gloster \ 500 \ 500 \  \  \  \  \  \ Completed 13 Jul 1940
195/38 \ 962371/38 \ Hawker \ 292 \ 292 \  \  \  \  \  \ Brooklands, completed 20 Jul 1940
195/38 \ 962371/38 \ Hawker \ 232 \ 232 \  \  \  \  \  \ Langley, completed 17 Jul 1940
56/38 \ 751458/38 \ Hawker \ 300 \ 300 \  \  \  \  \  \ Includes 12 for other governments.  Completed 15 Feb 1940
239/38 \ 964753/38 \ CCF \ 40 \ 40 \  \  \  \  \  \ Completed 2 Aug 1940
5/E1/39 \ B85730/40 \ Gloster \ 1700 \ 1250 \  \ 33 \ 417 \  \  \ Ordered as 500 then an extra 1,200
7/E1/39 \ B62305/39 \ Hawker \ 3738 \ 500 \  \ 429 \ 1138 \ 1671 \  \ Original order for 2,679 a/c?
11/E1/40 \ B62305/39 \ Hawker \  \  \  \  \  \  \  \ Aircraft counted In previous line, this order for 1,059 a/c?
4/E1/40 \ B158177/40 \ Gloster \ 450 \  \  \  \ 450 \  \  \ In summary card as 720 aircraft but 270 cancelled
8/E1/39 \ SB6648 \ CCF \ 560 \ 386 \ 174 \  \  \  \  \ 
1/E1/41 \ SB6648? \ CCF \ 200 \  \ 150 \  \  \  \ 50 \ Some contract card summaries say order was 50 I and 150 II.
5/E1/40 \ B124304/40 \ Austin \ 300 \  \  \  \ 300 \  \  \ 
All \ All \ Totals \ 9012 \ 4200 \ 324 \ 462 \ 2305 \ 1671 \ 50 \ 

All \ All \ Hawker \ 5162 \ 1924 \  \ 429 \ 1138 \ 1671 \  \ Delivery logs totals are 1924 I, 418 IIA, 1768 IIB, 1008 IIC, 44 IID
All \ All \ Gloster \ 2750 \ 1850 \  \ 33 \ 867 \  \  \ Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All \ All \ Austin \ 300 \  \  \  \ 300 \  \  \ Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All \ All \ CCF \ 800 \ 426 \ 324 \  \  \  \ 50 \ 

 

The data without column markers,

 

Requisition Contract Maker Order I II IIA IIB IIC Sea Notes
26/36 527112/36 Hawker 580 580      Includes 60 for other governments.  Completed 8 Nov 1939
215/38 966177/38 Hawker 20 20      For Canada, originally part of contract 527112/36
195/38 B19773/39 Gloster 100 100      Completed 9 Aug 1940
195/38 962371/38 Gloster 500 500      Completed 13 Jul 1940
195/38 962371/38 Hawker 292 292      Brooklands, completed 20 Jul 1940
195/38 962371/38 Hawker 232 232      Langley, completed 17 Jul 1940
56/38 751458/38 Hawker 300 300      Includes 12 for other governments.  Completed 15 Feb 1940
239/38 964753/38 CCF 40 40      Completed 2 Aug 1940
5/E1/39 B85730/40 Gloster 1700 1250  33 417   Ordered as 500 then an extra 1,200
7/E1/39 B62305/39 Hawker 3738 500  429 1138 1671  Original order for 2,679 a/c?
11/E1/40 B62305/39 Hawker        Aircraft counted In previous line, this order for 1,059 a/c?
4/E1/40 B158177/40 Gloster 450    450   In summary card as 720 aircraft but 270 cancelled
8/E1/39 SB6648 CCF 560 386 174     
1/E1/41 SB6648? CCF 200  150    50 Some contract card summaries say order was 50 I and 150 II.
5/E1/40 B124304/40 Austin 300    300   
All All Totals 9012 4200 324 462 2305 1671 50 
          
All All Hawker 5162 1924  429 1138 1671  Delivery logs totals are 1924 I, 418 IIA, 1768 IIB, 1008 IIC, 44 IID
All All Gloster 2750 1850  33 867   Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All All Austin 300    300   Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All All CCF 800 426 324    50 

 

Geoffrey Sinclair

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Time to post the correction to the fabric winged 1940 Hurricanes.  Comparison with British Military Aircraft Serials by Bruce Robertson.

 

Agreements,  P3714-P3717, P3737-P3739,  P3757-P3761, P3767, P3768, P3770-P3774, P3858-P3869,  P3872-P3875, P3882-P3889, P3897-P3903 (Only P3897 in my original list), P8809-P8810 (2 more I did not report earlier), P8816-P8818, R2680, R2681, V7200-V7209. (The delivery log entry remarks for V7200 read Fabric Wings (25 Aircraft))

 

V7221-V7235 according to Robertson, delivery logs exclude V7221 and V7223, but include V7276 and V7281. In addition the delivery logs have P3755, P3854 and P3890.

 

So the delivery log list is P3714 to P3717, P3737 to P3739, P3755, P3757 to P3761, P3767, P3768, P3770 to P3774, P3854, P3858 to P3869, P3872 to P3875, P3882 to P3890, P3897 to P9303, P8809, P8810, P8816 to P8818, R2680, R2681, V7200 to V7209, V7222, V7224 to V7235, V7276, V7281.  Total 85 aircraft.

 

Delivery log details,

P3714, 19 MU 4 June 1940, 253 Sqn 12 June 1940, 1 CRU?/4 MU 4? September 1940, 19 MU 9 October 1940, 501 Sqn 17 October 1940, 56 OTU 12 December 1940, later became mark II DR341, Russia
P3715, 19 MU 3 June 1940, 238 Sqn 18 June 1940, 19 MU 20 Jun 1940, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, 13 MU 2 September 1940, 20?MU 8 December 1940, 247 Sqn 23 December 1940, 13MU repairs 6 January 1941, 22 MU 2 February 1941, SOC 30 Jun 1943
P3716, 19 MU 1 June 1940, 229 Sqn 4 June 1940, 15 MU 2 July 1940, 13 MU repairs 9 October 1940, 19 MU 19 November 1940, 79 Sqn 22 December 1940, 43 Group DA 12 January 1941, Airtrg SAS 21 January 1941, 27 MU 8 April 1941, SOC 1 Apr 1942
P3717, 19 MU 3 June 1940, 238 Sqn 18 June 1940, 19 MU 20 June 1940, 253 Sqn 13 July 1940, 13 MU repairs? 31 August 1940, 48 MU 10 September 1940, 257 Sqn 17 September 1940, De Havilland ? 28 September 1940, 22 MU 28 October 1940, 43 Sqn 20 January 1941, later became mark II DR348, Russia
P3737, 22 MU 6 June 1940, 605 Sqn 3 July 1940, SOC 1 November 1940
P3738, 22 MU 6 Jun 1940, RAF Station? ?llck 5 July 1940, 232 Sqn 21 July 1940, 13 MU 28 September 1940, SOC 22 Sep 1940 (Yes SOC then MU)
P3739, 22 MU 2 June 1940, 5 MU 16 August 1940, 151 Sqn 20 August 1940, SOC 16 March 1942
P3755, 87 Sqn 25 June 1940, SOC 27 December 1940
P3757, 27 MU 6 June 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940, Rolls Royce/4MU 23 August 1940, 48 MU 8 September 1940, 18 MU 14 September 1940, 43 Sqn 2 October 1940, 43 Group DA ? February 1941, 13 MU repairs 17 March 1941
P3758, 27 MU 5 June 1940, 73 Sqn 21 June 1940, SOC 2 September 1940.
P3759, 20 MU 8 June 1940, 245 Sqn 26 June 1940, 607 Sqn 20 July 1940, Rolls Royce SASB 9 October 1940, 27 MU 14 November 1940, 312 Sqn 1 December 1940, became mark II DR349, Russia. (18 October 1941)
P3760, 20 MU 6 June 1940, CFF 11 June 1940, SOC 19 August 1940
P3761, 20 MU 8 June 1940, 245 Sqn 26 June 1940, 263 Sqn 15 July 1940, 258 Sqn 3 December 1940, 1 CRU SAS "B" 16 January 1941, SOC 29 December 1941
P3767, 20 MU 11 June 1940, 238 Sqn 11 July 1940, 263 Sqn 15 July 1940, 501 Sqn 8 October 1940, 13 MU repairs 16 October 1940, 48 MU 14 November 1940, 213 Sqn 4 February 1941, 1 RCAF Sqn 15 February 1941, 43 Group DA 26 March 1941, PSO, SOC 1 April 1941
P3768, 20 MU 8 June 1940, 47 MU 14 August 1940, 34 MU 29 August 1940, 1 CRU/4?MU 28? September 1940, 20 MU 20 October 1940, 47 MU 6 November 1940, Middle East, "Unknown Destination" 9 November 1940
P3770, 22 MU 11 June 1940, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, 504 Sqn 16 August 1940, SOC 11 September 1940.
P3771, 22 MU 12 June 1940, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, Rolls Royce/4MU 20 July 1940, 10 MU 29? August 1940, 1 September 1940 79 Sqn, 43 Group DA 14 March 1941, 17? March? 1941, ? SAS, SOC 31 May 1943
P3772, 22 MU 11 June 1940, 3 Sqn 12 July 1940, 504 Sqn 14 September 1940, 232 Sqn 23 September 1940, SOC 27 May 1941
P3773, 22 MU 13 June 1940, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, no further information
P3774, 22 MU 12 June 1940, 3 Sqn 12 July 1940, 504 Sqn 14 September 1940, SOC 21 September 1940
P3854, 2 MU 13 June 1940, 7 OTU 17 June 1940, 13 MU 20 July? 1940, 5 MU 13 August 1940, 85 Sqn 18 September 1940, 257 Sqn 22 November 1940, 56 OTU 26 November 1940, SOC 22 May 1941
P3858, 27 MU 18 June 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 18 September 1940
P3859, 27 MU 15 June 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 19 September 1940
P3860, 27 MU 15 June 1940 607 Sqn 4 July 1940, SOC 8 October 1940
P3861, 27 MU 15 June 1940, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, Cunliffe Owen 16 September 1940, 5 MU 5 December 1940, 9 SOTT? 12 February 1941, 9 FTS 13 February 1942, SOC 5 March 1945
P3862, 27 MU 18 June 1940, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, 56 Sqn 24 June 1940, 52 OTU 25 February 1941, CAT E 30 May 1944
P3863, 27 MU 18 June 1940, 73 Sqn 13 July 1940, 13 MU repairs 13 September 1940, SOC ? September 1940 cancelled, 20 MU 20 December? 1940, 247 Sqn 27 December 1940, 43 Group DA 3 March 1941, SOC June 1944
P3864, 27 MU 21 June 1940, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, AMDP 19 August 1940, 242 Sqn 25 August 1940, 73 Sqn 7 September 1940, 54 MU 43 Group 2 October 1940, Rolls Royce/4MU 5 December 1940, 19 MU 3 January 1941, 52 OTU 9 March 1941, SOC 17 January 1941? (1944?)
P3865, 27 MU 19 June 1940, 73 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 23 September 1940
P3866, 19 MU 19 June 1940, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, 56 Sqn 24 September 1940, 13 MU 30 October 1940, 27 MU 4 December 1940, 257 Sqn 12 January 1941, SOC 12 May 1941
P3867, 27 MU 19 June 1940, 302 Sqn 27 July 1940, SOC 4 March 1941
P3868, 27 MU 20 June 1940, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, 17? Sqn 20 September 1940, 52 OTU 13 March 1941, SOC 13 September 1942
P3869, 27 MU 21 June 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 22 July 1940, SOC 31 August 1940
P3872, 5 MU 22 June 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 June 1940, ? 1940 Hawkers 4 MU "B", 10 MU 10 October 1940, 302 Sqn 16 OCtober 1940, SOC 2 November 1940
P3873, 5 MU 21 June 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 July 1940, SOC 10 October 1940
P3874, 5 MU 22 June 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 July 1940, SOC 2 September 1940
P3875, 5 MU 22 June 1940, 111 Sqn 18 July 1940, SOC 2 September 1940
P3882, 5 MU 25 June 1940, 151 Sqn 2 July 1940, 43 Group 27 September 1940, SOC 30 September 1940
P3883, 5 MU 28 June 1940, 1 RACF Sqn 11 July 1940, 13 MU 3 September 1940, 1 Sqn 11 September 1940, SOC 19 November 1940
P3884, 10 MU 26 June 1940, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, 1 CRU/4MU B 12 September 1940, 10 MU 13 November 1940, 71 Sqn 12 December 1940, 56 OTU 14 February 1941, SOC 4 May 1941 cancelled, to 4262M, SOC 31 December 1946
P3885, 10 MU 26 June 1940, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
P3886, 10 MU 24 June 1940, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, 50 MU 43 Group 9 December 1940, ? SAS 11 December 1940, 15 MU 23 December 1940, 1 Sqn 2 February 1941, 59 OTU 19 March 1941, Arrive India 19 June 1943, SOC 28 September 1944
P3887, 10 MU 25? June 1940, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, SOC 1 September 1940
P3888, 10 MU 26 June 1940, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, 43 Group 54 MU 5 September 1940, De Havilland/4MU 5 September 1940, 18 MU 20 September 1940, 312 Sqn 11 October 1940, SOC 11 July 1942 (not in 1940 in previous list)
P3889, 10 MU 28 June 1940, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, 13 MU repair 1 September 1940, 48 MU 8 September 1940, 310 Sqn 12 September 1940, SOC 1 November 1940
P3890, 10 MU 25? June 1940, 257 Sqn 9 August 1940, 303 Sqn 10 August 1940, SOC 8 September 1940
P3897, 48 MU 30 June 1940, 1 Sqn 12 August 1940, SOC 11 September 1940
P3898, 48 MU 4 July 1940, 145 Sqn 12 August 1940, Rolls Royce/4MU 2 September 1940, 15 MU 20 September 1940, 229 Sqn 1 October 1940, ? SAS 8? November 1940, 10 MU 9 February 1941, CAT E 16 Nov 1944
P3899, 48 MU 6 July 1940, 145 Sqn 12 August 1940, Rlls Royce/4MU 29 August 1940, 18 MU 3 September 1940, 1 RCAF Sqn 14 September 1940, Hawkers/4? MU 29 September 1940, 19 MU 27? October 1940, 10 November 1940 Rolls Royce, SAS "B", 96 Sqn 19 December 1940, PSO 28 December 1940, SOC 28 December 1940
P3900, 48 MU 2 July 1940, 32 Sqn 14 August 1940, 13 MU 26 August 1940, 19 MU 15 October 1940, 87 Sqn 26 October 1940, 145 Sqn 8 November 1940, 17 Sqn 17 January 1941, 52 OTU(D) 3 March 1941, SOC 12 December 1941.
P3901, 48 MU 2 July 1940, 615 Sqn 16? August 1940, 13 MU 23 August 1940, 15 MU 11 September 1940, 202 Sqn 17 September 1940, 253 Sqn 3 January 1941, SOC 28 April 1943
P3902, 48 MU 1 July 1940, 249 Sqn 20 August 1940, 56 MU 24? September 1940, 52 OTU 25 February 1941, SOC 17 March 1942
P3903, 48 MU 3 July 1940, 43 Sqn 14 August 1940, SOC 6 September 1940
P8809, 5 MU 15 July 1940, 310 Sqn 23 July 1940, SOC 12 December 1940
P8810, 5 MU 15 July 1940, 232 Sqn 7 August 1940, 43 Group DA 23 February 1941, ? SAS 4 March 1941, SCO 20 December (no year given)
P8816, 5 MU 19 July 1940, 501 Sqn 7 August 1940, 49 MU 43 Group ? August 1940, AST? 4MU 16 September 1940, 20 MU 21 October 1940, 145 Sqn 28 October 1940, SOC 26 November 1940
P8817, 5 MU 19 July 1940, 52? MU 22 August 1940, sold to South Africa the same day.
P8818, 5 MU 18 July 1940, 601 Sqn 25 July 1940, SOC 23 September 1940
R2680, 5 MU 19 July 1940, 238 Sqn 7 August 1940, 50? MU 43 Group 9 September 1940, ? 4 MU B 11 September 1940, 27 MU 13 October 1940 crossed out, 46 MU 21 October 1940, 56 OTU 14 February 1941, 71 Sqn no date, 56 OTU 2 March 1941, SOC 27 April 1943
R2681, 5 MU 20 July 1940, 238 Sqn 8 August 1940, 59 OTU 30 March 1941, CAT E 27 November 1944
V7200, 19 MU 3 July 1940, 79 Sqn 13 July 1940, 13 MU 7 September 1940, 10 MU 28 October 1940, 312 Sqn 22 November 1940, 55 OTU 16 January 1941, SOC 14? September? 1941?
V7201, 19 MU 2 July 1940, 46 Sqn 12 July 1940, 13 MU 10 September 1940, 27 MU 19 November 1940, 260 Sqn 9 December 1940, CAT E 27 May 1944
V7202, 19 MU 2 July 1940, 46 Sqn 13 July 1940, 13 MU repairs 1 October 1940, SOC 31 December 1940
V7203, 19 MU 4 July 1940, 32? Sqn 13 JUly 1940 crossed out, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 30 January 1941
V7204, 19 MU 4 July 1940, 87 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 4 January 1941
V7205, 19 MU 6 July 1940, 32 Sqn 24 July 1940, SOC 12 August 1940
V7206, 19 MU 8 July 1940, 43 Sqn 23 July 1940, 59 OTU 9 February 1941, SOC 27 November? 1941
V7207, 19 MU 4 July 1940, 87 Sqn 13 July 1940, 13 MU repairs 7 January 1941, 5 MU 23 February 1941, To FAA 19 March 1941, Cat E 13 October 1944
V7208, 19 MU 4 July 1940, 213 Sqn 23 July 1940, 1CRU SA?S 18 December 1940, 27 MU 13 February 1941, 5 MU Robin Sites? 8 April 1941
V7209, 19 MU 7 July 1940, 73 Sqn 23 July 1940, 501 Sqn 26? October 1940, 56 OTU 19 December 1940, 43 Group DA 13 March 1941, Hawkers SAS 18 March 1941, SOC 28 September 1944
V7222, 19 MU 8 July 1940, 111 Sqn 14 August 1940, 13 MU repairs 27 August 1940, 20 MU 24 September 1940, 151 Sqn 2 October 1940, 253 Sqn A 22 December? 1940,SOC 22 November 1942
V7224, 15 MU 10 July 1940, 213 Sqn 14 August 1940, De Havilland SAS B 9 October 1940, 5 MU 26 October 1940, 610 Sqn 29 November 1940, 248? Sqn A 14 March 1940, Arrive Port Sudan 3 February 1942, CAT E 30 September 1943
V7225, 15 MU 14? July 1940, 87 Sqn 14 August 1940, Rolls Royce SAS 28 December 1940, 15 MU 15 January 1941, 20 MU 21 February 1941, RAF A Mildenhall 25 March 1941, SOC 26 August 1941
V7226, 15 MU 9 July 1940, 87? Sqn 12 Aug 1940, 213 Sqn same day, 18? September? 1940 Hawkers 4 MU, SOC 30 September 1940
V7227, 15 MU 8 July 1940, 87 Sqn 13 August 1940, 213 Sqn 13 August 1940, SOC 22 August 1940
V7228, 15 MY 12 July 1940, 87 Sqn 13 August 1940, 213 Sqn same day, SOC August 1940
V7229, 10 MU 14 July 1940, 601 Sqn 9 July 1940, 49 MU 43 Group 15 August 1940, De Havilland 4 MU 17 August 1940, 5 MU 23 September 1940, 501 Sqn 28 September 1940, no loss date given
V7230, 10 MU 18 JUly 1940, 501 Sqn 3 August 1940, Airtraining ? MU B 23 September 1940, 29 MU 18 October 1940, 145 Sqn 28 October 1940, SOC 4 January 1941
V7231, 10 MU 14 July 1940, 87 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
V7232, 10 MU 13 July 1940, 46 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 11 Oct 1940
V7233, 10 MU 16 July 1940, 87 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
V7234, 10 MY 17 July 1940, 501 Sqn 3 August 1940, 13 MU repairs 11 September 1940, 20 MU 30 September 1940, 151 Sqn 2 July 1940, 43 Group DA 6 March 1941, Rolls Royce SAS 14 March 1941, converted to Mark II DG617
V7235, 10 MU 18 July 1940, 267 Sqn 9 August 1940, 303 Sqn 10 August 1940, 253 Sqn 3 January 1941, SOC 31 May 1941
V7276, 5 MU 19 July 1940, 47 MU 3 August 1940, South Africa 20 August 1940
V7281, 5 MU 21 July 1940, 47 MU 7 August 1940, South Africa 20 August 1940

 

[Graham Boak]

A bit late, but Selwyn's post 28 mentions that the metal inner wing that the mechanic is sitting on is fabric covered in aircraft with fabric-covered wings.  This is undoubtedly true of early aircraft.  However, the inner wing was actually part of the aircraft centre-section.  A late production aircraft will have had this in metal whichever outer wings were fitted to it.  Something to bear in mind when modifying (or not) the Airfix kit.

[ClaudioN]

18 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

the metal inner wing that the mechanic is sitting on is fabric covered in aircraft with fabric-covered wings.  This is undoubtedly true of early aircraft.  However, the inner wing was actually part of the aircraft centre-section.  A late production aircraft will have had this in metal whichever outer wings were fitted to it.

What I like of the Hurricane is its extremely modular design. All Hurricanes look the same, but only from a distance.

[Troy Smith]

On 25/06/2020 at 09:44, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

P3774, 3 Sqn 12 July 1940, 504 Sqn 14 September 1940, SOC 21 September 1940

yowza! 

 

another photo..

I was idly looking thorough BoB photographic Kaleidoscope Vol.4,  this shot is on page 116, a head on is on page 115 for confirmation.

 

I think this is going to require a separate thread.  Note,  504 Sq code on the port side read V-TM.   The non standard underwing roundel  is similar to the one on V7203.

..which leads to another possible curio,  some V**** serial Hurricanes, eg V6825 TM-F of 504 Sq, have Hurricane 'bullet' Rotol spinners,  so perhaps we will get a fabric wings with bullet Rotol photo....

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Troy Smith
pic link

[Dave Fleming]

Thinking about P3854 and VY-Q, 

 

and Geoffrey's excellent history post shows us it didn't join 85 until mid September

 

On 8/6/2020 at 6:11 PM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

P3854, 2 MU 13 June 1940, 7 OTU 17 June 1940, 13 MU 20 July? 1940, 5 MU 13 August 1940, 85 Sqn 18 September 1940, 257 Sqn 22 November 1940, 56 OTU 26 November 1940, SOC 22 May 1941
 

 

 

There are photos out there showing a metal wing Hurricane with VY-Q which claim to be P3854, but as those were taken at Castle Combs in July, they would have to be P3166 (lost on 31/8/40)

 

Presumably P3854 was allocated to Townsend on his return to the Squadron on 21/9/40. We know the 'formation' pictures of 85 were taken in October 1940 (Source - IWM).

 

So the big Airfix kit had the right codes but the wrong serial!! 🙂

Which leaves one small intrigue - P3854 is often quoted as the serial for Keith Park's OK-1 (and there is a replica in New Zealand to that effect) - but if it was with 85 Sqn in the latter half of the Battle, and then to 56 OTU (Part of 81 Group) from November, could it have been Park's aircraft? As 13 OTU was a repair unit, presumably it was damaged at 7 OTU then repaired and sent to the storage and supply 5 MU before being issued to 85.

 

Edit: Suggestions that OK1 was actually N2520. From photos looks metal winged.

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Dave Fleming