Antoine Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 I think we opened a kind of worms can. Early Kfirs #1 - 5 hard points : 2x AAM, 2x Fuel tanks (large ones or Mirage Supresonic Fuel Tanks style), 1x Fuel tank on center line So a Kfir would have less capacity than a mirage 5??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Posted August 3, 2016 Share Posted August 3, 2016 ATAC used the F-21 (C2) so could be an interesting build. Look at our Facebook Builders Club for one doe as an ATAC bird. It is NOT an F-21A - dont let anyone tell you it is. Ask me how I know?.... I am afraid it is another..... ATAC is a civilian business, not a government agency. Their aircraft are simply kfir C2 (Maybe C7?), not F-21, which is the official designation of C1s leased by USN/USMC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 (edited) Thanks Antoine. Actually ATAC serialised them as simply F-21. The F-21A is the shorter canard and sawed leading edge version you know as the F-21A. If you look closely at an ATAC F-21 (C2) you will see the designation F-21. See below. All in the name of getting it right for the modeller. Edited August 4, 2016 by Martin @ AMK Hobby 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 (edited) Here you go: If you click this link and then make the image larger, look at the rear section of the aircraft near the exhaust nozzle. http://aviationintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/P1000764.jpg Kfir C-2 Model: F-21 S/N: 136 N401AX Hope this helps. Edited August 4, 2016 by Martin @ AMK Hobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 4, 2016 Author Share Posted August 4, 2016 (edited) ATAC is a civilian business, not a government agency. Their aircraft are simply kfir C2 (Maybe C7?), not F-21, which is the official designation of C1s leased by USN/USMC. USN and Marines use Adversary configured F-21A Kfir (originally C-1.5 (or C-1+ if you prefer as it had no official designation)). Again, these have a shorter canard and sawed leading edge in the main wing. The ATAC F-21 (C-2) Kfir have the larger canard and dog toothed leading edge main wings. ATAC ones are totally stripped of military equipment and recently had some nose GPS and sensor upgrades - I cannot say more than that on an open forum. The C-1 Kfir had no canards at all. It can get confusing I admit. Edited August 4, 2016 by Martin @ AMK Hobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Well. What I mean is that whatever ATAC write on their aircraft, F-21 is not an official designation for them. They are Kfir C2, or C7 (I think they've got some?). This must come from something like ex-Marines/USN tech recruited by ATAC, qualified on F-21 and used to call every Kfir F-21. But. This is official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Hi Antoine, Possibly - but you are correct in that the F-21 is not an official designation. ATAC uses the official designation of C-2 for the most part but they do call it the F-21. I think they do have at least one C-7 I can easily find out from Race if push comes to shove. The F-21A is an official designation. The F-21A is used by the USN and Marines. Your slight confusion comes from F-21 vs F-21A. F-21 = C2 (for ATAC use non militarised). F-21A = C1+ (or C-1.5 or C1 Upgrade as no official name was ever given). Hope that helps to clarify? Phew, the Kfir is hard. Edited August 5, 2016 by Martin @ AMK Hobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share Posted August 5, 2016 In any case, the 1/72 C2/C7 is about to released to distributors so should be ready for retail September / October 2016 depending on shipping and location. More on box art and decals etc when I have them. Cheers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Hi Antoine, Possibly - but you are correct in that the F-21 is not an official designation. ATAC uses the official designation of C-2 for the most part but they do call it the F-21. I think they do have at least one C-7 I can easily find out from Race if push comes to shove. The F-21A is an official designation. The F-21A is used by the USN and Marines. Your slight confusion comes from F-21 vs F-21A. F-21 = C2 (for ATAC use non militarised). F-21A = C1+ (or C-1.5 or C1 Upgrade as no official name was ever given). Hope that helps to clarify? Phew, the Kfir is hard. Well... I'm not confused by anything. It's not like I was interested in the kfir since yesterday. F-21, or F-21A if you want, was the official designation of the early Kfir in USN/USMC service. Kfir C2 ≠ F-21, a Kfir C2 is a Kfir C2, and there's no official US designation for it. It has never seen service with the US armed forces. F-21 is an ATAC thing for their C2, that's it. The Navy aircraft did have a Bureau Number, the Marines did not, but they were all registered as part of thoses services. If you have a look at the link I posted above, you'll see that ATAC's Kfir are registered with the FAA as Kfir, not as any sort of F-21. Just another proof, if its really needed. SUBJ: Aircraft Type Designators 1. Purpose of This Order. This order provides standard abbreviations (aircraft type designators) for the most common aircraft that are provided with air traffic service (ATS). This order also provides additional reference information used by air traffic control. Download this document, related to abreviations used in ATC. Search it with "Kfir", and you'll see the aircraft we're talking about. Type F-21, and you'll see something completely different. Well, anyway, I'm not too sure everybody's interested in this, so I'll stop there. I'll get the kit nevertheless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPESTMK5 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Good afternoon Martin I would like to know if you think of producing a Mirage III in 1/72 Scale ? Patrice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Well, anyway, I'm not too sure everybody's interested in this, so I'll stop there. I'll get the kit nevertheless. never everybody is interested, but some are inho, the imporant thing is that when you build a C2/C7, use large canards, when builing a USMC/Navy Kfir put on this very small strakes (for some C1 even smaller strakes were used). use a standard kfir wing with outer leading edge extension on a C2/C7 or a straight leading edge wing with a saw like cut-out for the F-21A or C1 (actually more or less a Mirage III wing) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 They've just let down the SUE, what do you expect??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 5, 2016 Author Share Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) Thank you for your interest Antoine. Appreciate the comments. http://www.atacusa.com/f_21_kfir.html Edited August 5, 2016 by Martin @ AMK Hobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papertiger59 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 (edited) So a Kfir would have less capacity than a mirage 5??? Hi Antoine. After checking my references, I found Kfirs later got 7 hard points. Remember the Mirage 5 was a downgrated version of the Mirage IIIE, build to Isareli request, with an emphasis on ground attack capabilities. After France embargoed the delivery of Mirage 5s in 1967/68, Israel decided to build its own variant (but I'm sure you know about the story, and won't go to the Nesher and Kfir History...). Thanks to the power plant (GE79 is more powerful than the Atar09), the Kfir is slightly faster than the Mirage 5 (Mach 2.2+/Mach 2.2), the Kfir (in its more advanced versions) carries more "bombs" (5.000 kg +/4.000kg). The Kfir is (was) wired for different types of AAMs (Sidewinders, Shafrir, Python). Service ceiling and rate or climbs are almost the same, but the combat radius, thanks to the thirsty GE79, fell to 750 km+ (Mirage 5 1200 km +). And I think Israeli avionics were a little more advanced. Chris. Chris. Edited August 5, 2016 by Papertiger59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoine Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Hi Antoine. After checking my references, I found Kfirs later got 7 hard points. Remember the Mirage 5 was a downgrated version of the Mirage IIIE, build to Isareli request, with an emphasis on ground attack capabilities. After France embargoed the delivery of Mirage 5s in 1967/68, Israel decided to build its own variant (but I'm sure you know about the story, and won't go to the Nesher and Kfir History...). Depend on the story, the old legend, or the true story? my mistake, but you missed the grain of salt in my question. Someone talked about the early kfir only capable of 5 hard points, and that's not correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 After France embargoed the delivery of Mirage 5s in 1967/68, Israel decided to build its own variant (but I'm sure you know about the story, and won't go to the Nesher and Kfir History...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homebee Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 (edited) Weapons. Source: https://www.facebook.com/avantgardemodelkits/photos/?tab=album&album_id=657627804402050 The first single piece missile in plastic, 1/72 scale? V.P. Edited August 23, 2016 by Homebee 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary C Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Weapons. Source: https://www.facebook.com/avantgardemodelkits/photos/?tab=album&album_id=657627804402050 The first single piece missile in plastic, 1/72 scale? V.P. Seriously? Manufacturers have been making one piece missiles and bombs since the hobby first started. I'm sitting here looking at the crappy old Airfix 72nd Tornado F.3, it's got horrible blobby sidewinders in it but they're molded in one piece. It's nothing new. The only difference now is that companies like AMK have rotated the missile through 45 degrees on the sprue so they can use slide molding to get more detail on it. The downside is that because there are 4 parts to the mold rather than two you get twice as many seams to clean up than you would with a missile of two halves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain goat Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Seriously? Manufacturers have been making one piece missiles and bombs since the hobby first started. Indeed. Some have acceptable levels of detail too. Hasegawa Sidewinders in the F-16 kit for instance; they're still usable. Fujimi Sidewinders in the British Phantom kits; they are (or should I say were) nice. Anyway - glad to see such rapid progress on the project! Even though I'll only buy one or two Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Seriously? Manufacturers have been making one piece missiles and bombs since the hobby first started. No, I read it as the first single piece FOR THIS KIT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 No, I read it as the first single piece FOR THIS KIT. Yes. This kit has the first weapons by AMK in 1/72 scale. I think it was lost in some translation. I hope that one day my Chinese is as good as his English 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEMPESTMK5 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Good afternoon Martin I would like to know if you think of producing a Mirage III in 1/72 Scale ? Patrice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Good afternoon Martin I would like to know if you think of producing a Mirage III in 1/72 Scale ? Patrice +1 for a Mirage III in 1/72nd and not a IIIC (yawn), but a IIIE version, so many more markings options there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin @ AMK Hobby Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 More release announcements coming after the Tomcat is released Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbit Leader Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 +1 for a Mirage III in 1/72nd and not a IIIC (yawn), but a IIIE version, so many more markings options there! +100 for a 1/72 Mirage IIIE as well. Not sure of your current pricing policies, however if it's a decent kit (and based on your track record - it will be) a E type Mirage just has to be another legal form for printing your own money!! Cheers.. and awaiting your next announcements.. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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