1:72 AZ Models Supermarine Spitfire F.Mk. XIV

[Col.]

This one is looking lovely Bill. I'm no great fan of mid-mark Spits but slowly warming to the XIV when viewing work such as yours.

[Navy Bird]

The more I look at the paint scheme on this aircraft the more confused I get. For example, AeroMaster decal sheet 48-044 says this:

 

 

Interesting - Dark Earth and Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, with white theatre stripes and spinner. Oh well, that would at least match all of the die-cast models of RN135 as they are all DE/DG. So are half of the built plastic models of Lacey's XIV you find on the web.

 

But wait! If you order AeroMaster decal sheet 48-044 in the next 60 minutes, you'll find this:

 

 

Now she's Ocean Grey and Dark Green with a black spinner. Still has the white theatre stripes.

 

AeroMaster are pretty sure that the starboard side is YB/A, and not A/YB.

 

I found the photo of RN137 FF/U that I think is the one that Gwart was referring to, and this clearly shows the starboard side roundel overpainted with Dark Green:

 

 

As this is also a 17 squadron aircraft, is it safe to assume that the code presentation would be the same for all? In which case, AeroMaster is wrong and the starboard codes on Lacey's aircraft would be A/YB.

 

RN137 also has clipped wings and white theatre stripes (at least on the tail, I can't make out the wings) and a white (sky?) spinner.

 

And of course the famous shot of RM972 YB/D which shows overpainting of roundels with Ocean Grey (thoughtfully explained by Gwart as due to having gone through a different maintenance unit):

 

 

We see the white theatre stripes and spinner on this aircraft as well. But no fuselage band!

 

I wonder if it's reasonable to think that at some time Lacey's aircraft got white theatre stripes, white spinner, and clipped wings. AZ would have you model clipped wings if you choose Lacey's 1947 markings in Japan.

 

From all of this I conclude that the colour scheme for RN135 at one point in time (when?) is standard DFS, Ocean Grey and Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, Sky fuselage band, Dark Green overpainted roundels, and black spinner (could be Dark Green based on the one photo I've found that shows it). Codes are YB/A on the port side and A/YB on the starboard side. I will look through my decal spares and try to find some 16" SEAC roundels with a less vibrant shade of light blue. Sound like the right plan?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Beard]

Bill,

I think that DE/DG over MSG was the standard scheme in SEAC and think that it was was changed post-war.

These links might be of use:

A discussion about RAF schemes: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/69350-raf-colours-ww2/

One specifically about RN135: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937971-ginger-laceys-spitfire-xiv-rn135/

I hope they're of help.

Simon

[Navy Bird]

On 7/27/2016 at 16:24, Beard said:

Bill,

I think that DE/DG over MSG was the standard scheme in SEAC and think that it was was changed post-war.

These links might be of use:

A discussion about RAF schemes: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/69350-raf-colours-ww2/

One specifically about RN135: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937971-ginger-laceys-spitfire-xiv-rn135/

I hope they're of help.

Simon

 

Thanks, Simon. Those links (and some links contained within) seem to support that Lacey's aircraft was in DFS, not TLS. Nick Millman's comment sums it up nicely:

 

"If RN135 had been re-painted in TLS it would be unlikely to show the original fuselage roundel overpainting extending out of the original Dark Green segment (as the Ocean Grey segment would have been re-painted Dark Earth over the original roundel anyway) or have retained the Sky fuselage band and black serial. Memories notwithstanding it is most probably in DFS as delivered. Lacey's Oscar kill was in February 1945 and the Spit VIII he was flying then would have been "green and brown"."

 

Nick is referring above to Lacey's memory that his SEAC Spitfire was green and brown. Nick also made some great points about RM972 (my last photo above) and concludes that it's in TLS. If this is true, then the roundel was not overpainted with Ocean Grey; rather all of its Ocean Grey areas were overpainted with Dark Earth:

 

"If you look above the SEAC roundel between the 'B' and 'D' the ghost image of the original larger roundel can just about be made out. On aircraft in Day Fighter scheme (DFS) this tended to be overpainted in Dark Green, extending the Dark Green segment to form a circle, whereas on aircraft re-finished in Temperate Land scheme (TLS) the Dark Earth was painted over that part of the roundel (and the Ocean Grey) resulting in the ghost image. Another clue to TLS is the over painted fuselage band and the serial repainted in white on the fin. These are about the only ways to differentiate DFS from TLS in monochrome images. I would say therefore that YB-D is probably in theatre applied TLS with a white spinner and theatre bands."

 

Apparently there were a mix of DFS and TLS in 17 Squadron, and the white theatre stripes were not always applied.

 

I think my plan is still OK.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Navy Bird]

Ah, I forgot to ask:

 

What size were the roundels (fuselage and wing) that were overpainted? I need to get a good idea so I know how large of a circle mask to make.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Beard]

I've got the actual diameters somewhere but I'm watching a documentary about the Somme and drinking beer so getting off the sofa is a little difficult at the moment.

These links may be of help:

http://woodair.net/Aviation/roundels/RAF_Roundels.htm

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire/Supermarine-Spitfire-Camo-and-Marks_Page_07-960

[Gwart]

Some cleaner versions of the two pictures Bill linked.

The Wing in the top upper right of this one.

I do have a theory that it was only the FR.14e's with clipped wings that got the TLS treatment out there (Of the Griffon engined Spits F.XIV/FR.XIV,XVIII).

Shane.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Gwart

[Giorgio N]

Apparently there were a mix of DFS and TLS in 17 Squadron, and the white theatre stripes were not always applied.

I think my plan is still OK.

Cheers,

Bill

There sure were aircrafts in different camouflage schemes and in a reply in one of the threads linked above I mentioned a well known picture of 3 aircrafts of 17 Sqn. showing different schemes.

We have to keep in mind that the Spitfire XIV arrived in SEA at the end of the war and with this a number of camouflage and markings requirements changed. The white bands for example were dropped with the end of the war, aircrafts that arrived before the end of the war and were repainted in TLS had such bands but many aircrafts that arrived only a few weeks later never got the bands applied as these were not required anymore. That aircrafts stopped being repainted in TLS is also due to the end of the war.

My personal opinion is that RN135 arrived in theatre in DFS, got its roundels modified to SEA standard and then remained that way until it was prepared to be sent to Japan as part of the Commonwealth Occupation Force, when it received the well known overall medium sea grey scheme with dark green bands on the uppersurfaces.

Among the reasons for the introduction of a new scheme for use over Japan was the presence within units of a variety of colour schemes, something that simply didn't look good to the Authorities. Aircrafts sent to Japan were initially supposed to sport a natural metal or silver scheme. This was to be achieved by stripping all paint from the aircrafts.

According to Lucas, 17 Sqn. Operational Record Book states that work on the implementation of the new colour scheme started on February 8th 1946. The difficulties found in stripping the aircrafts however led to the MSG/DG scheme. I find it hard to believe that RN135 was repainted in the few months between its arrival in theatre in mid 1945 and its repainting in February/March 1946, it's most likely that she retained the DFS scheme until repainted for service in Japan.

Standard ETO roundel sizes were 56" above the wings, 32" under the wings and 36" on the fuselage.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Giorgio N

[Navy Bird]

Thanks for the bigger pictures, Shane. I can see now that RM972 is YB/O, not YB/D. It's also interesting that the wing in the upper right of the photo of RN137 FF/U does not appear to have had any roundels overpainted. Hmmm. If this is an aircraft in TLS, then it wasn't just clipped wing birds which got that treatment. That wing does look a bit tonally different than FF/U.

 

Giorgio, I think your theory concerning RN135 is a good one.

 

From the great links that Simon posted, is it fair to say that the original European theatre upper wing roundels were 56" diameter, and the fuselage roundels were 36" diameter?

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Gwart]

Clipped wing Bubble topped one's used for lower level recon repainted in TLS.YB-O is most definitely in DK Grn/OG/Msg,as is the unclipped winged spit in the expanded picture of U-FF.

[Navy Bird]

On 7/27/2016 at 19:23, Gwart said:

Clipped wing Bubble topped one's used for lower level recon repainted in TLS.YB-O is most definitely in DK Grn/OG/Msg,as is the unclipped winged spit in the expanded picture of U-FF.

 

Thanks - is there a reference source for that? I'm thinking there may be some Spitfire bible that I don't have that answers a lot of these questions. I only have a boat load and a half more Spitfire models to build!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Procopius]

Ah, I forgot to ask:

What size were the roundels (fuselage and wing) that were overpainted? I need to get a good idea so I know how large of a circle mask to make.

Cheers,

Bill

Per Camouflage and Markings by Goulding and Jones, 36" for fuselage C.1 type roundels, 56" for overwing roundels, and I think either 32" or 36" underwing roundels, if I read it correctly.

[Navy Bird]

Here's where we are at the end of today - the "Ocean" Grey and Dark Green are on, using a freehand airbursh generating a soft edge. No blue-tac or anything like that. These colours are Gunze Aqueous H73 Dark Green and H75 Dark Sea Grey. Gunze makes an aqueous Ocean Grey, but it is only available in one of their WWII sets which I've not been able to acquire over here. Two of the builds in the book on building Tamiya's 1:32 Spitfire use H75, so what the heck. Far be it from me to question Brett and Roy!

 

 

 

Next up will be the roundel overpainting areas and I think I'll use Gunze H330 Dark Green. It should look a little darker and a little bit greener. Lastly, I'll mask off the bottom for the Medium Sea Grey. Gunze's version of this colour, H335, is too dark, so I'll use H306 instead.

 

On 7/27/2016 at 20:00, Procopius said:

Per Camouflage and Markings by Goulding and Jones, 36" for fuselage C.1 type roundels, 56" for overwing roundels, and I think either 32" or 36" underwing roundels, if I read it correctly.

 

Perfect! Thanks, PC!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[CedB]

Very smart Bill, good job!

[Fritag]

I'm always rather in awe of the breadth and depth of learning that folks on BM have about the Spitfire (and other aircraft for that matter). I was idly catching up on Bill's progress (any Bill build is a must read for me) and my thought processes sort of went:

"Hmm- Spitfire XIV - one of my favourite marks when I was a kid - although way back then I liked the low back variant more cos I thought it looked more modern and cool (the immaturity of youth); still rather like the look of the griffon front end - which reminds me - didn't the prop rotate in the opposite direction to the merlin - now why was that?....."

So - straight onto Google and to no great surprise I find a BM thread on just that subject: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980119-spitfire-prop-direction-of-rotation/

Anyways - drift over. But I remain in awe - of both the spitfire learning on display - and of course Bill's ability to produce one cracking build after another. I have this nagging thought that there ought to be a separate forum just for Bill's builds so that they can all be gathered together in one place to be easily enjoyed again and again.....

Edited July 28, 2016 by Fritag

[giemme]

I have this nagging thought that there ought to be a separate forum just for Bill's builds so that they can all be gathered together in one place to be easily enjoyed again and again.....

That would be a great idea! Like BM Navy Bird's Work in progress section

Ciao

[Gwart]

Thanks - is there a reference source for that? I'm thinking there may be some Spitfire bible that I don't have that answers a lot of these questions. I only have a boat load and a half more Spitfire models to build!

Cheers,

Bill

No it's just a theory ,whcih is hard to back up with just b+w pictures.

[Nick Millman]

YB-O is most definitely in DK Grn/OG/Msg

Really? What is the evidence for that?

There is no hint of a DFS fuselage band - even overpainted. The serial and perhaps previous code letter(s) have been overpainted and re-positioned on the fin. Why would an aircraft delivered in DFS be completely re-painted in - er - DFS? Seems more probable that it has been completely re-painted in TLS - over the original colours as criticised in the ICI report.

Nick

[Gwart]

In no way did i say that the aircraft was repainted from DFS to DFS at any point in this thread.

1 Overpaint on cowl to neaten around the gauntlet ?

2 Original roundel overpainted OG.

3 Two distinct shades infront of and over the Sky band

4 Overpainted I.d no.

YB-O and SEAC roundel possibly applied at this point.

5 Serial no. overpainted,much darker shade than the overpaint of..

6 upper part of sky band in DK green.So probably done after the sky band repaint.

If this A/C was a TLS repaint why the messy job with the lower part of sky band and the original serial no. position.Surely if it was this area was repainted entirely in DK Earth the serial number would be covered by it

bonus

7 I need to stop using words like 'Definitely' on modelling forums.

Shane.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Gwart

[Navy Bird]

On 7/28/2016 at 03:44, Fritag said:

Anyways - drift over. But I remain in awe - of both the spitfire learning on display - and of course Bill's ability to produce one cracking build after another. I have this nagging thought that there ought to be a separate forum just for Bill's builds so that they can all be gathered together in one place to be easily enjoyed again and again.....

On 7/28/2016 at 09:01, giemme said:

That would be a great idea! Like BM Navy Bird's Work in progress section

 

You guys are crazy! But thanks anyway.

 

I'm off to visit a friend who was paralysed in an auto accident (the one I went to visit in Denver). She's back in town now and we're bringing them dinner. Maybe later tonight I can spray the over-painted roundels on. The masks have been prepared, pretty easy as they scale out to 1/2 inch and 3/4 inch (approximately). I made masks as I suspect that I'm not good enough to make circles freehand. Irregular blobs, yes, but circles...I don't know. Let's hope I don't muck it up.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Bedders]

The more I look at the paint scheme on this aircraft the more confused I get. For example, AeroMaster decal sheet 48-044 says this:

Interesting - Dark Earth and Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, with white theatre stripes and spinner. Oh well, that would at least match all of the die-cast models of RN135 as they are all DE/DG. So are half of the built plastic models of Lacey's XIV you find on the web.

But wait! If you order AeroMaster decal sheet 48-044 in the next 60 minutes, you'll find this:

Now she's Ocean Grey and Dark Green with a black spinner. Still has the white theatre stripes.

AeroMaster are pretty sure that the starboard side is YB/A, and not A/YB.

I found the photo of RN137 FF/U that I think is the one that Gwart was referring to, and this clearly shows the starboard side roundel overpainted with Dark Green:

As this is also a 17 squadron aircraft, is it safe to assume that the code presentation would be the same for all? In which case, AeroMaster is wrong and the starboard codes on Lacey's aircraft would be A/YB.

RN137 also has clipped wings and white theatre stripes (at least on the tail, I can't make out the wings) and a white (sky?) spinner.

And of course the famous shot of RM972 YB/D which shows overpainting of roundels with Ocean Grey (thoughtfully explained by Gwart as due to having gone through a different maintenance unit):

We see the white theatre stripes and spinner on this aircraft as well. But no fuselage band!

I wonder if it's reasonable to think that at some time Lacey's aircraft got white theatre stripes, white spinner, and clipped wings. AZ would have you model clipped wings if you choose Lacey's 1947 markings in Japan.

From all of this I conclude that the colour scheme for RN135 at one point in time (when?) is standard DFS, Ocean Grey and Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, Sky fuselage band, Dark Green overpainted roundels, and black spinner (could be Dark Green based on the one photo I've found that shows it). Codes are YB/A on the port side and A/YB on the starboard side. I will look through my decal spares and try to find some 16" SEAC roundels with a less vibrant shade of light blue. Sound like the right plan?

Cheers,

Bill

I've been away from BM for a bit but the photo of the XIV taken from above is interesting as, despite the fact it's an e wing aircraft, it has the c wing 303 ports taped over at the leading edge. Wonder what that's all about - as far as I'm aware, all RN- serialled aircraft were built with e wings, so the idea of a field conversion from c to e seems unlikely. Another possibility might be that the XIV fuselage was given a pair of spare VIII wings, which were then changed to e configuration. But then there would have been all the radiator gubbins to change too. So I remain confused...

Lovely build Bill. My Griffon Spit projects are all locked up at the moment, but yours is looking exquisite.

Justin

Justin

[Bedders]

Course i s'pose it might have been a bluffing exercise by sqn ground crew to make eagle-eyed enemy pilots think they were dealing with an old VIII when in fact there was a Griffon under the bonnet...

Justin

[Gwart]

The outer gun bay panels are visible,but there's nothing to show that there's fitted mg's.

In the old Osprey Aircam on the Griffon Spit there's a frontal view of YB-O and she has doped over mg ports.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Gwart

[Cookenbacher]

The AZ box art depicts the gun port covers, which I assumed was just a mistake by the artist, but it looks like photos show them too.

[Gwart]

Another 17 Sqn one with doped over mg ports.

Sky tail band,original serial number and small white serial number on tail.

I've had a good look through my books and pictures Bill and could find no starboard side views of any 17 Sqn Spits.

Shane.