Extra Dark Sea Grey

[Nearlymen]

I do love a good debate on Colour and EDSG is a perennial Favourite, but before anyone gets too heated under the collar may I add a little something.

As you get older your colour perception changes, albeit so slowly that you don’t recognise it and it is quite plausible and possible that some may disagree over the same paint chip when it is held up to scrutiny because each individual perceives it slightly differently.

I believe it was Monet who painted water lilies hundreds of time over his life but the colour palette he used changed because he slowly perceived the colours differently with a shift to a more blue colour use.

I don’t know all your ages of course but it might be a case that the younger among us see the colours a little differently.

Who knows there might be something in it !

Cheerio

Clive

[Nick Millman]

Having consulted my 1996 edition, ESDG isn't in it! My mistake ...

It does list L*a*b* and Munsell references though and does indeed describe Dark Sea Grey (not extra dark) as a Munsell PB. I'll defer to Nick's expertise but regardless how it measures, it's so unsaturated that it looks to my eye as what most people would call a grey (or gray!!). I agree it lacks the warmth of a pure grey, but am not sure I'd describe it as a purple-blue to a layman who had never seen it.

Still, I've learned something, as usual!

It's one of the quirks in the Munsell system which is intended to pinpoint, catalogue and communicate precise colour rather than describe it per se, since descriptions can be so subjective and/or ambiguous. The Munsell values are dependent on three 'sliding scales'. The hue, the essential colour property - red, blue, green etc., around a circular scale which chases its own tail , the lightness darkness on a scale of white to black the 'circle' moves up and down on and the colour saturation - the intensity of the essential colour property that moves the circle in and out from no colour to the absolute pure colour. The schematic at Wiki shows the basic holistic nature of the system:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system#/media/File:Munsell-system.svg

Absolutely pure greys which Munsell categorises as N - neutral - are quite rare in camouflage paints and most camouflage greys are in effect tinted greys introducing one or more other pigments to black and white. So if you can imagine EDSG is essentially a dark grey weakly tinted with a colour where blue begins to become purple or alternatively a dark grey with a bluish-purple undertone. RAF Ocean Grey is also a Munsell PB and interestingly one of the colloquial descriptions applied to it on the first Typhoons was "purple grey".

The first Munsell value pinpoints the actual hue of the colour element between purple and blue, its darkness around 3 and the colour saturation at a very low 1. Those last two figures mean that black (for darkness) and grey (for lack of colour) predominate. The RN tests described above demonstrated that in the case of Cellon EDSG paint the colour element, that faint purple-blue, was lost after 6 months exposure with the paint surface shifting to the appearance of an untinted dark grey.

Where actual applied paint samples are taken as evidence of standard colour there is always the danger of incorporating elements of degradation into perception or of overlooking variance from standard in the first place. That oft seen phrase "the paint is in good condition" can be deceptive because photo-chemical changes and, for example, thermal ageing, do not always result in the paint looking obviously 'old' or worn. Surface integrity and gloss retention can disguise quite significant underlying colour shifts and the yellowing of paint binder can subtly alter the colour appearance - of light blues to greenish blues, or greens to become more olive for example.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

I do love a good debate on Colour and EDSG is a perennial Favourite, but before anyone gets too heated under the collar may I add a little something.

As you get older your colour perception changes, albeit so slowly that you don’t recognise it and it is quite plausible and possible that some may disagree over the same paint chip when it is held up to scrutiny because each individual perceives it slightly differently.

I believe it was Monet who painted water lilies hundreds of time over his life but the colour palette he used changed because he slowly perceived the colours differently with a shift to a more blue colour use.

I don’t know all your ages of course but it might be a case that the younger among us see the colours a little differently.

Who knows there might be something in it !

Cheerio

Clive

That certainly influences human perception of colour, and not just due to age, but not the measurement of colour using scientific instrumentation. In all humans the proportion of long-wavelength-sensitive cones to medium-wavelength-sensitive cones in the retina, the profile of light sensitivity in each type of cone, and the amount of age-related yellowing in the lens and macular pigment of the eye, differs from one person to the next. That alters the relative importance of different wavelengths in a colours/strengths distribution to each observer's perception. As a result, two dissimilar colours may produce a match for one observer but fail to match when viewed by a second observer. In hobby terms one of the most prevalent demonstrations of that is the subjective matching of paint colours.

The difference between a colour standard and an applied paint, where variance and age related change come in, adds another layer of complexity to human perception. In reality there is enough variance from all those factors to cancel out notions of precise colour. On a model it essentially comes down to what looks "right" and convincing, often influenced by visual reception and expectation of imagery. There is an underlying precision to colour standards as a starting point but once the paint goes on it can travel in all sorts of directions.

Nick

[303sqn]

I believe it was Monet who painted water lilies hundreds of time over his life but the colour palette he used changed because he slowly perceived the colours differently with a shift to a more blue colour use.

Monet's problem with colour perception was caused by cataracts. He started to have minor problems around 1905 but it was 1912 before it was diagnosed. Monet looked for alternative treatments for surgery. An ophthalmologist, Charles Coutela, proscribed eye-drops that dilated the pupil of his left eye. Monet was pleased with resuts but they did not last long and surgery was recommended. By 1919 he began to worry that he would have to give up painting but he put off surgery until 1923. During this period he carried on painting. The effect of his cataracts can be seen in his work. Brush strokes became broader and whites, greens and blues began to change shade and disappear. His painting became more abstract, using a red-orange palette for landscapes instead odf a green-blue one. While this has been described by some as a stylistic change there is no evidence that supports it. On the contrary, after surgery in 1923 he destroyed many of his 'cataract' paintings, those that survive being attributed to intervention by family and friends.

[Nearlymen]

Cheers Nick and 303 for the info, the Monet thing was is the back of mind (I nearly wrote Manet to be honest ! Oops !) interesting that it was cataracts that caused the colour shift to red (Sorry I thought it was to blue), anyway my apologies to anyone who thinks its drifted slightly off topic, but it’s surprising the things I’ve learned by reading the Britmodeller forums !

Normal service will now be resumed on the EDSG debate!

Cheerio

Clive

[TheBaron]

The controversy over EDSG here doesn't surprise me.

I've no particular axe to grind on the subject but wanted to interject that I'm currently reading John Gage's seminal book 'Colour and Meaning', in which Gage makes it quite clear that in studying colour we not only have to contend with empirical measurement processes (as discussed by Nick above), that take place in strictly controlled circumstances, but have to deal also with the perceptivist effects of biology in different individuals when viewing the same colours out in the world under greatly varying conditions of illumination (this is before we get anywhere near the question of faithful colour reproduction in mediated images).

The apparent contradictions between these two sets of factors have been recognised as having profound effects on studying the psychology of colour in different contexts - to the list of which we can now append that of modelling!

I simply offer these thoughts as I note more than one individual involved in this thread who has in the past taken considerable time and kindness in order to assist me with information, and it would sit badly with me to pass this by without noting that the disagreements involved echo those found within the study of colour itself, and do not in themselves need to be an occasion for anger.

Kind regards to all who have posted,

Tony

Edited June 16, 2016 by TheBaron

[Nick Millman]

Can someone clarify, was EDSG only ever used by the FAA, and not the RAF post-war?

RAF Coastal Command used it briefly in the post war period 1945-47 and PRU during the war with the low-flying scheme.

Nick

[Andrew Jones]

RAF Coastal Command used it briefly in the post war period 1945-47 and PRU during the war with the low-flying scheme.

Nick

Are there actually any confirmed uses of the PRU low-flying scheme ?

Andrew

[Nick Millman]

In addition to the following memo from the CO of RAF Benson in December 1942 there is a reference to the scheme (EDSG and Dark Green over Mauve) being one of the two basic PR colour schemes in a 1945 RAE report on the development of RAF camouflage schemes. This memo describes "sea grey" but the stores reference given is for EDSG. The other stores reference for "Dark Green" seems to be in error as 33B/338 is Sky is Extra Dark Sea Green. The word 'adopted' suggests the scheme was in use and that is confirmed by the later report. The colours used are intriguing because the term "sea camouflage" would suggest TSS rather than a hybrid of TSS and TLS but the rationale for using Extra Dark Sea Green instead of Dark Slate Grey is unknown.

Nick

[Selwyn]

In addition to the following memo from the CO of RAF Benson in December 1942 there is a reference to the scheme (EDSG and Dark Green over Mauve) being one of the two basic PR colour schemes in a 1945 RAE report on the development of RAF camouflage schemes. This memo describes "sea grey" but the stores reference given is for EDSG. The other stores reference for Dark Green seems to be in error as 33B/338 is Sky! The word 'adopted' suggests the scheme was in use and that is confirmed by the later report. The colours used are intriguing because the term "sea camouflage" would suggest TSS rather than a hybrid of TSS and TLS.

Nick

Interesting that PRU Pink although demandable had not been allocated an official 33B section and reference number at this time, (NIV is the giveaway short for No Inventory number) I wonder if it ever got an official sect 33B number allocated? I don't think it lasted that long in service?

Selwyn

[Giorgio N]

Interestingly, the same scheme was mentioned in a later AMO (864/44) but the green used was described as extra dark sea green. IIRC no mention was made in the AMO of the proper store numbers.

The problem with this scheme is that official documents state its existence but there are few if any photographic evidence of aircrafts carrying it.

It's likely that only the Spitfire PR.xiii wore this scheme and these were very camera-shy. Maybe a few PR.Ig also carried the scheme.

[Dave Fleming]

There is another document that Edgar had that gives the grey the stores ref for Medium Sea Grey, which might account for the rather light grey on the PR XIII.

One possible post war RAF of EDSG (a legacy of the use in Coastal Command) was on the early Beaufighters used by 45 Squadron in Malaya, although these may have been in day fighter scheme

[Nick Millman]

Interestingly, the same scheme was mentioned in a later AMO (864/44) but the green used was described as extra dark sea green. IIRC no mention was made in the AMO of the proper store numbers.

The problem with this scheme is that official documents state its existence but there are few if any photographic evidence of aircrafts carrying it.

It's likely that only the Spitfire PR.xiii wore this scheme and these were very camera-shy. Maybe a few PR.Ig also carried the scheme.

Hi Giorgio

It's not in the AMO (which just points to the DTD) but in Appendix 10 Issue 1 of DTD Technical Circular 360 Issue 2 of November 1943 which also includes a list of stores reference numbers where I now see that 388 is listed as Extra Dark Sea Green. I can't find an earlier edition of Appendix 10 but from this I think it safe to presume that the "Dark Green" 33B/338 in the 1942 memo actually refers to Extra Dark Sea Green. Therefore a long running 'standard' PR scheme, photographs or no! As an aside I think it could present a very low contrast scheme in b/w photographs, perhaps even appearing as a single dark colour in some.

Since this is getting off topic I'll post the relevant docs (together with the memo above) in the WWII section later.

The March 1948 RAE list of current paint colours for MAP includes Extra Dark Sea Grey and PRU Mauve but not Extra Dark Sea Green. The latter colour had been listed as obsolete - together with PRU Mauve (!) - by RD Materials in February 1946.

Regards

Nick

[Nick Millman]

Interesting that PRU Pink although demandable had not been allocated an official 33B section and reference number at this time, (NIV is the giveaway short for No Inventory number) I wonder if it ever got an official sect 33B number allocated? I don't think it lasted that long in service?

Selwyn

It's not listed in the stores reference list for DTD 360 of November 1943 whereas PRU Mauve is - 33B/594, 597 & 599.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

There is another document that Edgar had that gives the grey the stores ref for Medium Sea Grey, which might account for the rather light grey on the PR XIII.

One possible post war RAF of EDSG (a legacy of the use in Coastal Command) was on the early Beaufighters used by 45 Squadron in Malaya, although these may have been in day fighter scheme

I haven't seen that but I'll keep looking! See above, the DTD 360 is quite clear on the colours combo for P.R. (Low flying) being EDSGrey, EDSGreen and Mauve.

Nick

[stevehnz]

At last something I can use Humbrol 30 for. The Hu 30 tins I have in stock are a good Mk 1 eyeball match for the EDSGreen chip in the RAF museum book, to my everso flawed ocular organs in any case.

Steve.

[Dave Fleming]

I haven't seen that but I'll keep looking! See above, the DTD 360 is quite clear on the colours combo for P.R. (Low flying) being EDSGrey, EDSGreen and Mauve.

Nick

my mind was playing tricks - the stores ref thing was my postulation, based on the apparent typo for 338/388 and the fact that MSG had stores ref fof 245 rather than 345, and the fact that Edgar had found a drawing labelling the prop as medium sea grey.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/36403-pr-aircraft-low-flying-scheme/?p=389638

The AMOs and DTDs always mentioned it as ESDrey and ESDGreen, but some of the few photos of aircraft purported to be in that scheme show a relatively light grey.

e.g.:

Of course it could be a photographic film/filter etc effect (Ocean Grey for example has a habit of appearing very light in some photos)

Edited June 17, 2016 by Dave Fleming

[Nick Millman]

my mind was playing tricks - the stores ref thing was my postulation, based on the apparent typo for 338/388 and the fact that MSG had stores ref fof 245 rather than 345, and the fact that Edgar had found a drawing labelling the prop as medium sea grey.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/36403-pr-aircraft-low-flying-scheme/?p=389638

The AMOs and DTDs always mentioned it as ESDrey and ESDGreen, but some of the few photos of aircraft purported to be in that scheme show a relatively light grey.

e.g.:

Of course it could be a photographic film/filter etc effect (Ocean Grey for example has a habit of appearing very light in some photos)

If the term "sea grey" was being bandied about at the time as the memo suggests then medium sea grey might have been presumed as it was perhaps the more familiar paint in the RAF but there are now three clear references to the official scheme in different documents at different times. Where the linked thread goes wrong is in presuming the British Aviation Colours book reference to the scheme is from AMO 864. The book reproduces the contents of DTD Circular 360 (from page 32) from Air Publication 2656A but runs on from the AMOs without making clear they were separate documents. Each DTD 360 had an issue number and the specific schemes appear as Appendices, each with its own number and issue number. I know from personal anecdote how difficult it was to maintain document control to ensure currency and the work of updating technical documentation issues and incorporating amendments required great diligence, not always forthcoming.

In the drawing it is the EDSGreen that appears the lighter of the two colours and whilst the EDSGrey looks similar to the MAP colour the green appears quite different to the MAP chip for EDSGreen, being lighter. The colours are similar to the PRU Hudson schematic except that aircraft has Sky under surfaces.

Nick

[Dave Fleming]

I know from personal anecdote how difficult it was to maintain document control to ensure currency and the work of updating technical documentation issues and incorporating amendments required great diligence, not always forthcoming.

It also makes it a nightmare for researchers trying to identify what the standards were on a particular date, as the obselete docs/pages were generally destroyed or pasted over. Still an issue with documents today, most only keep the revisions!

[junglierating]

Anybody noticed that the guy who made the original post has gone quiet.

Really people it's a scale model with scale colour..which in real life fades.

So how about if it looks right it is right.

[Nick Millman]

Anybody noticed that the guy who made the original post has gone quiet.

Really people it's a scale model with scale colour..which in real life fades.

So how about if it looks right it is right.

So, Sheriff of Britmodeller ("Really people . . . "), when someone asks a question about paint colour the only reply needed is "if it looks right it is right"?

I'll bear that in mind. Should shorten the threads considerably and save much time and effort!

Nick

[Black Knight]

Well, Nick, I, for one really appreciate all your input on the proper colours.

A lot of it flies over my head cos I don't understand it all but I do read what you and the other experts put up and discuss.

More importantly; I learn from these discussions.

For some other input on this from me. It probably won't help.

Firstly, a caveat; I'm colour blind.

One of my uncles, who was sort of my modelling mentor when I was nipper, used to get me into Shorts & Harland, where he worked, to see ships being built, Skyvans at Shorts etc.

Sharing the same area was RNAS Sydenham which had an MU

I got over and saw Sea Venoms, Buccaneers and Sea Vixens and some other aircraft the MU were working on.

I think I was building the Airfix Buccaneer at the time.

Anyways, I noticed that the Sea Venoms were a dark grey, but the Buccs and Sea Vixens were a much more bluish colour.

I didn't know at the time it was supposed to be the same colour.

The Sea Venoms were being withdrawn from service I believe but the Buccs and Vixens were in for servicing and fresh repaints.

Within a short time from that the Buccs were being repainted in RAF colours for their transfer.

I went home and added dark blue to a dark grey to get the same sort of colour for my model kit.

[junglierating]

So, Sheriff of Britmodeller ("Really people . . . "), when someone asks a question about paint colour the only reply needed is "if it looks right it is right"?

I'll bear that in mind. Should shorten the threads considerably and save much time and effort!

Nick[/quote

Wasn't meant to be a personal dig anyone or anything mearly trying to point out that there is a degree of variance and personal choice.

I note your comment on another thread nick.so for you I will investigate the AW TQS this week and get a definative answer for you and the original poster.

[junglierating]

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/

Found this website it might be useful for some.

It's gives alternatives to BS paint standards

EDSG BS 640

[Trenton guy]

Oh dear! I've gone quiet because I really didn't know when I asked. As my Grandfather advised me, back when Nikita Kruschev was new on the job, "nobody ever learned anything with their mouth open". I really appreciate everyone else opening their mouths, especially Nick, and I think I have my answer. It's a blue. Thanks all

Bill