ASR Spitfires

[DaveCromie]

While trawling the IWM photo archive I came across the image below and I have a few questions regarding it:

1. What are the 2 circular shapes below the port wing? They look like bomb fins, but the diameter seems too small.

2. Would this aircraft be in TSS (Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey/Sky) or a more conventional Spitfire Scheme

3. What colour are the codes? My poor memory seems to think they are meant to be red but they seem to be VERY close in colour to the outer ring of the Roundel, so is my memory betraying me again?

On a related note I seem to recall that ASR Spitfires had a longitudinal black stripe under their centreline but I'm damned if I can remember where I came across this piece of information so I can't remember how wide it was or if it was applied to all ASR aircraft or not (I certainly can't see it on any other photographs), can anyone out there help me out with these questions and/or my atrocious memory?

Cheers

DC

[Giorgio N]

A few quick answers:

Underwing stores: I have to check but I believe they are smoke marker bombs. These were carried under a light store carrier.

Scheme:ASR Spitfires were supposed to have been painted in TSS... but I'm sure we can discuss this. The aircraft seems to have a lighter colour passing through the cockpit, indicating TSS rather than DFS. At the same time the paint looks very worn in some areas, this may affect what we see in the picture. The aircraft also has a standard sky band, not sure if this was supposed to be carried with TSS?

Codes; yellow starting in 1943, I agree that they look the same yellow of the roundel so I'd go with that colour

Stripe: IIRC a 12" wide black stripe from spinner to tail starting in 1943

Edited June 10, 2016 by Giorgio N

[Troy Smith]

While trawling the IWM photo archive I came across the image below and I have a few questions regarding it:

1. What are the 2 circular shapes below the port wing? They look like bomb fins, but the diameter seems too small.

2. Would this aircraft be in TSS (Extra Dark Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey/Sky) or a more conventional Spitfire Scheme

3. What colour are the codes? My poor memory seems to think they are meant to be red but they seem to be VERY close in colour to the outer ring of the Roundel, so is my memory betraying me again?

On a related note I seem to recall that ASR Spitfires had a longitudinal black stripe under their centreline but I'm damned if I can remember where I came across this piece of information so I can't remember how wide it was or if it was applied to all ASR aircraft or not (I certainly can't see it on any other photographs), can anyone out there help me out with these questions and/or my atrocious memory?

Cheers

DC

perhaps this Dave?

from Ducimus, scanned here

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire

cheers

T

[sanguin]

There are already a number of threads on this topic here on Britmodeller.

The easiest way to find them is to allow Google to be your friend and search under 'ASR Spitfires'.

This usually brings up the Britmodeller links all in one place, there are at least three or four that you will find helpful.

There are some clear cut facts and some uncertainties along with just a soupçon of conjecture, just what we all enjoy.

A bit of doubt can make modelling so much easier......

John

[DaveCromie]

Giorgio

Thanks for that, smoke markers makes perfect sense! As to the colour scheme etc, it was the sky band that was causing me to doubt myself re TSS but as you say the demarcation through the cockpit area does back that up so I'm happy to go with TSS.

Troy

I must have gone through my copy of Ducimus a dozen times in the last few days on other matters and thought I knew it inside out - how on Earth did I miss that!!!

John

My Google-fu has been defective for years now, no matter how much time I spend online, my searches never seem to come up with what I'm looking for. I think I need to find an idiots guide to web searches....now how would I find that?

Thanks guys, as ususal the BM members come up trumps!

DC

[Coors54]

Re: black stripe down the centre line, note the colour of the hatch where the erks are loading the stores, there looks to be a darker line in the shadow as well so it's there I would say.

Dave

[Junchan]

I'm pretty sure that the ASR Defiants were finished in TSS, but I don't think that the ASR Spitfires were in DFS, but in TLS like this Mk.V from 278 ASR Squadron.

I agree with Dave regarding an underside black stripe. Here is a photo of the same aircraft from a different angle showing the color demarcation on the flare shoot door.

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

Edited June 11, 2016 by Junchan

[303sqn]

That is the Day Fighter Scheme not the Land Temperate Scheme.

[Junchan]

That is the Day Fighter Scheme not the Land Temperate Scheme.

Sorry for my careless mistake. That is DFS, Dark Green / Ocean Grey / Sea Grey Medium.

[DaveCromie]

Coors

thanks for pointing that out, I really do think I'm going blind as well as losing my memory!

Jun and 303sqn

No doubt the Mk VB is in Day Fighter Scheme (DFS - DG/OG/MSG). Ducimus (thank you Troy) clearly states "Standard Day Fighter" and that ties in with the contrast between the sky band and lower fuselage so I am going to change my mind in the face of the evidence and go with DFS and a fair bit of fading/chipping/weathering....which is a pity cos I really like TSS and I hate applying weathering (mainly because I have yet to master it!).

Thank you all

DC

[brewerjerry]

Hi

P8131, is an asr IIc spitfire,

not clear in this photo but a lot of 276Sqn spitfire asr IIc, were the cannon armed b wing

I am not near my files so cant check at the moment

cheers

jerry

[DaveCromie]

Brewerjerry

this just gets more and more interesting, I don't even have a IIB in my collection at this time. Could this be a chance for 2 to go in the to-do list?

DC

[brewerjerry]

Hi DC,

I cant get to my fies for about a week, but have quite a few photos that would interest you, they were taken by a 276 pilot.

If I forget PM me in about a weeks time and i will dig them out and e mail copies.

276 was at harrowbeer which was for a very ... long time my area of interest/research until i crossed over the pond but i kept my harrowbeer files.

cheers

jerry

[stevehnz]

Hmmm, an ASR IIb, something which would go well with my recent Sword IIb purchase. Any chance of sharing some of the details Jerry? do they extend to code/serial match ups (yellow codes, darn near unobtainium )?

Steve.

[Peter Roberts]

Steve, there was a good serial-code match up done on this forum a little while back (the first page is also worth checking out - lots more info).

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234942579-asr-spitfires-revisited/page-2

If 1/48 is your scale, I may be able to help re: yellow code decals. PM me if you are interested.

Cheers

PR

Edited June 12, 2016 by Peter Roberts

[stevehnz]

Thanks for that link Peter, I knew it had been discussed but I didn't manage to find that one. I'm a 1/72 modeller & afaik, there are no yellow codes of the correct style in that scale. Cmon, Mr H, you know you want to.

Steve.

[brewerjerry]

Thanks for that link Peter, I knew it had been discussed but I didn't manage to find that one. I'm a 1/72 modeller & afaik, there are no yellow codes of the correct style in that scale. Cmon, Mr H, you know you want to.

Steve.

Hi

There are these, maybe some one sells them ?

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Berna-Decals-1-72-YELLOW-CODE-LETTERS-British-Royal-Air-Force-/191001906585?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253Da211453f776747d6acfe5b0ef4a78dcd%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D2%2526rkt%253D11%2526sd%253D360813794776&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460

cheers

jerry

Edited June 12, 2016 by brewerjerry

[stevehnz]

I've bought from Rebelalpha on ebay before Jerry, with complete satisfaction, however, the sizes on this sheet are too small if I'm doing my sums correctly, the largest size is 1/4" about 18" scale size in 1/72, too small for most RAF codes which are generally about 24" with maybe up to 30" if memory serves me.

Steve.

[Giorgio N]

There's no doubt that ASR Spitfires at some point were in DFS, there are other pictures showing Mk.Vs in this scheme (BTW, nice picture Jun, thanks for sharing!). What would be good to know for sure is if some were or not in TSS...

[Nick Millman]

According to the DTD 360 TSS was the official scheme for ASR aircraft but a relevant note was added to Appendix 8 of Issue 1 of 23 Feb 1943 and subsequent issues.

[tempestfan]

Thanks for that note, Nick. Would it imply that earlier fighters on ASR duty (between the issue of DTD360 and issue of the amendment), like that II, may have been repainted in TSS? The contraSt looks rather low, fitting with TSS, but of course that may be down to the film or a darker species of OG.

BTW, my perception of the codes is very slightly lighter than the yellow of the roundel, but probably that's just my perception.

[Nick Millman]

I couldn't find any mention of ASR schemes until DTD 360 of 23 Feb 1943 where it is added as an addition to Ambulance aircraft in Appendix 8 and sets out the scheme as follows:-

The note amendment shown in the previous post was issued on 15 March 1943, very soon after the DTD issue. The initial memo for code letter colour change is dated 24 Jan 1943 and refers to 277 Sqn re-equipping with Spitfire II. A minute dated 2 Feb 1943 suggests that since the Spitfire IIs were allocated to ASR in order to be be able to fight in the normal course of their duties they should be in standard day fighter colourings and markings.

The first proposal from HQ Fighter Command dated 16 Feb 1943 is that 277 Sqn be authorised to use barred letters, that both 276 and 277 Sqns be authorised to apply yellow unit codes and a black "streak" 12" wide running from "root of spinner to tail wheel along the belly of the aircraft". An Air Ministry minute dated 26 Feb 1943 reiterates the proposals and presumably initiated the DTD amendment:-

It is apparent from the preceding Air Ministry correspondence that there was uncertainty about the actual colouring of existing ASR Spitfires before these decisions.

Nick

[brewerjerry]

Hi

I am away from my notes but as the thread is running....

Any info on the initial use of red codes by ASR Sqns.

276 used them on defiants at least from memory, I am curious if red was used initially on spitfires ?

cheers

jerry

Edited June 15, 2016 by brewerjerry

[Nick Millman]

The 24 Jan '43 request for code colour change to yellow for 277 Sqn refers to "the present RED squadron letters" (the upper case is in the original). A July 1943 Air Ministry minute whinging about the colour change to yellow states that dull red letters were promulgated in AMO 664/1942.

Actually the wording of 664 is ambiguous. It states only that code letters are to be painted in the "appropriate colour" and then at para 5 (ii) that "matt finish paints are to be used for the national markings and dull red code letters".

Nick

[Paul J]

In the colour photo one can just make out the black underside stripe on the lower underside engine panel. I trust the Ducimus publications by the way.