Early RAF jet fighters in combat

[KRK4m]

There's a topic in another section concerning limited use of Meteor before the VE-day, so - instead of asking there - I'd rather go for a new topic here, as my question concerns limited combat use of RAF Meteor during the Cold War period.

As all we know Meteor and Vampire were not only two first British jet fighters, but also two most numerous ones in whole history with Hunter and Venom (a Vampire half-brother BTW) far behind and all others still more exotic. Both (i.e. Meteor and Vampire) were widely exported and their final users didn't hesitate to use them in combat ranging from minor skirmishes up to the serious conflicts like Korea or Israeli-Arabian wars. AFAIK the RAF also used Vampires in combat against Malayan and Kenyan guerillas (No 45, 60 and 8 Sq.) and flown them operationally in other "hot" areas like Cyprus and Oman. So why wasn't Meteor F.8 combat-tested by RAF, while the contemporary FR.9 made combat sorties over Suez in 1956 and ex-RAF F.8s fought with RAAF No. 77 Sq. in Korea ?

Cheers

Michael

Edited June 8, 2016 by KRK4m

[Giorgio N]

The Meteor F.8 was used as interceptor by Fighter Command for the defense of the UK, as such it didn't serve in theatres where it could have been used in combat.

[KRK4m]

OK, it explains something, although I still consider Vampire being better dogfighter than Meteor

So - back to the "crab": were the Malayan emergency and Mau Mau uprising the only conflicts where RAF Vampire FB 5s (nee 9s) saw combat?

What about Cyprus and Oman? I hope that 1956 Suez Crisis - so well captioned in many sources - was already too late for the RAF Vampires.

Cheers

Michael

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi, Michael

You mentioned Israeli Meteors and one of their FR.9s downed two Egypt's Vampires in border skirmishes even before Suez, IIRC. Both Vampires and Meteors flew ground support sorties for Egypt during 1956 war, as did Israeli Meteors. There is also infamous downing of Egyptian Il-14 by Israeli Meteor NF.13 the night before hostilities officially began. Israel hoped for Yamamoto type victory but instead of shooting down VIP transport, packed with Egyptian high-ranking officers, destroyed the plane transporting journalists. The same version of Meteors, RAF NF.13, had been tasked with night defence duties of bases on Cyprus. I am not certain, but IIRC, it was Egyptian Meteor, that finished off flak damaged Israeli Mystere returning from strafing mission. I do not know about RAF, but RN did fly ground support and bombing missions with Sea Venoms. There is well known photo of one of those planes after successful belly-landing on an aircraft carrier. Again, IIRC, navigator had been knocked out by flak and pilot had been flying the plane with one hand and with the other preventing his navigator from stumbling on control column. There is plenty more and most of these topics have been thoroughly covered on ACIG, mostly by Tom Cooper. For the old school guys (like me) who do not dismiss printed media out of hand and have basic understanding of Czech language, PKR covered 1956 war in a series of articles with plenty of colour profiles, albeit some twenty years ago. I hope that helps. Regards

Jure

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi!

I was so keen to get into debate that I missed the topic includes only RAF Meteors and Vampires and not the other air forces. I am sorry about that. Regards

Jure

[Giorgio N]

Yes, RAF Vampires saw action in Kenya and Malaya. The Venom saw combat over Suez, Malaya and Aden.

The reason for the relatively little combat use of RAF Vampires is simply that by the time other conflicts had erupted, the Vampire had been replaced by more advanced types.

[KRK4m]

OK, so let's go further... All the photos I've seen show the Vampires from No. 8 (Mau Mau), 45 and 60 (Malaya) squadrons in NMF (or is it High Speed Silver?).

Is there any chance of finding any of these war-blooded FB 5s in any form (DG/DSG perhaps) of camouflage painting?

Cheers

Michael

[Aardvark]

This combat or not (?):

September, 1950 the Gloster Meteor T.7 RAF made reracing flight from air base Glochester in Germany. On a route the pilot of capt. John V.(?) Driver(?) has met difficult weather conditions, was lost and has violated the air space of GDR. I have executed an emergency landing on the autobahn Hamburg-Berlin in 32 km from border then has been arrested by the Soviet troops. The pilot is released in December, and the plane isn't returned.

Resource: http://skywar.ru/389.html

Best Regards,

Serge

[Don McIntyre]

As most of the Vampire's fuselage was plywood, I'm betting on a High Speed Silver finsh vice NMF.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

They were aluminium painted overall ( AKA "High Speed Silver")

I'll look in Cold War Shield vol 2 tonight to see if any got camo for combat ops "overseas"

Jonners

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

OK, so let's go further... All the photos I've seen show the Vampires from No. 8 (Mau Mau), 45 and 60 (Malaya) squadrons in NMF (or is it High Speed Silver?).

Is there any chance of finding any of these war-blooded FB 5s in any form (DG/DSG perhaps) of camouflage painting?

Cheers

Michael

You are in luck. There are pics of 8 squadron and 45 squadron Vampires in the PRU blue underside with medium sea grey & light slate grey upper camo scheme. The 45 squadron machine was donated by 60 Sqn to keep them in "birds" so by inference one might assume some 60 sqn Vampires also wore this scheme.

The 8 Sqn machines would certainly have been active in Aden, but its not clear if the detachment of any 6 aircraft sent to do Anti-mau-mau ops wore this scheme Im afraid.

HTH

Jonners

[KRK4m]

You are in luck. There are pics of 8 squadron and 45 squadron Vampires in the PRU blue underside with medium sea grey & light slate grey upper camo scheme. The 45 squadron machine was donated by 60 Sqn to keep them in "birds" so by inference one might assume some 60 sqn Vampires also wore this scheme.

The 8 Sqn machines would certainly have been active in Aden, but its not clear if the detachment of any 6 aircraft sent to do Anti-mau-mau ops wore this scheme Im afraid.

HTH

Jonners

Yes it does help, Jonners

Nevertheless now I see that No 8 Sq. machines were only Mk.9s, so my interest concerns now on the 44 FB.5 a/c despatched to Malaya between November 1950 and January 1951 (six groups of 6-7 Vampires each). Perhaps all of them wore WA... serials (ten are known already to me beginning with WA237 up to WA276), but all of them are "High Speed Silver". Do those wearing SGM/LtSlaG/PRU camo a/c belong to this batch or are they later FB.9s ?

Cheers

Michael

PS. Contrary to popular belief RAF Meteor F.8s were used operationally in combat area - two (or three) were flown between May and August 1955 with No 45 Squadron over Malaya... Have anybody seen any photos of them?