Sten Ekedahl Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) Finally got started on my Airfix Blenheim Mk.I. Decided to give it the full treatment with PE and resin parts. Made up my mind long time ago to use decals from an Xtradecal sheet for a 45 Sqn aircraft in desert colours. Have now reached the stage when the interior areas must be painted before I can continue. The colour for the cockpit is no problem; standard British interior gray green. Now, Airfix gives the same colour for the wheel wells, the bomb bay, gun turret interior, and the insides of the engine cowlings. Whilst this might very well be corect, I'm always a bit suspicious about the colours given in kit instructions. So I would be very thankful if anyone could confirm this or correct it if it's wrong. Airfix also states that the landing gear legs were black. This is certainly true for the restored Blenheim Mk.IV at Hendon. However looking at many contemporary b/w photos, although not of the best quality, the gear legs appear much too bright to be black. To me it looks like they were painted interior gray green too, just like the wheel wells. Or could it be painted aluminium, just like the wheels? Questions like this can sometimes drive you nuts! TIA Edited June 5, 2016 by Sten Ekedahl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Hi Sten others may know more, but it seems in the early part of the war, cockpits were grey-green, but the rest of the internal areas of the airframe are painted with aluminium dope/paint. this is true for Spitfires and Hurricanes, and a famous photo of a Whitley with the fuselage torn open shows a very light colour, grey-green usually photographs a mid grey tone, aluminium as very light grey. also, if you have not seen it, the old Ducimus monograph on Blenhiem Camo and Markings is well worth a read scanned here http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/07-Bristol-Blenheimhttp://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/07-Bristol-Blenheim HTH T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Ekedahl Posted June 4, 2016 Author Share Posted June 4, 2016 Yes I know this, and that is the reason for my question. And Airfix, in their instructions, says that everything inside the Whitley should be "interior green". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Ekedahl Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Hmmm, this seems to be a difficult question. No takers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Life magazine took a series of colour photographs of Blenheim I's in the Far East and these have, relatively recently, seen the light of day. The main legs appear to be a light grey colour with the tailwheel fork a gloss black. This black fork also appears in photographs of Blenheim I's on the production line. The light grey could well be weathered aluminium but they appear slightly darker than the aluminium wheel hub and as leg manufacturers select their own colour for their products, they could well be a light grey. However. Photographs from a Finnish website show that the main legs on their Blenheim I's appear much darker and could well be black. Interior colours. There was no bulkhead between the cockpit and the rest of the aircraft only the mainplane carry through box. A lot of British aircraft had the formers and stringers painted prior to the skin being attached, it itself having been pre-painted before riveting on. This, in turn, reduced production time. As an educated guess, I would say that the entire interior would have been painted Interior Green prior to fitting out. The above may help. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Ekedahl Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Thanks a lot! Very helpful. This seems to confirm that Airfix got it right in the instructions, apart from the main gear legs. I wouldn't use the Finnish Blenhem as a reference for RAF aicraft since most of the Finnish Blenheims were licence manufactured in Finland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Hello, Sten Main undercarriage legs colours are a bit tricky. On Type 142 and 142M they are clearly black (Blenheim, Aeroplane Icons publication). Photos of the Filton production line from the same publication show Mk.Is with black, silver/NMC and medium to dark gray undercarriage legs, with wheel hubs either silver/NMC or black. There is one photo of Mk.I with medium to dark gray legs, black actuators and silver/NMC wheel hubs on Filton line and another photo of Mk.I in the same colours on the photo of Rootes factory line at Speke. In operational service there is photo of in Bristol Blenheim I (Profile publications) of No. 90 Sqn. Bleinheims, all with black undercarriage legs and black wheel hubs. In Blenheim in action (Signal/Squadron) there are many photos of Blenheims with black undercarriage legs and black hubs, including the photo of K7035 on its back with black legs, medium or dark gray actuators and black wheel hubs. However ... like both you and Dennis noticed there is also plenty of photos of Blenheims, very clearly with undercarriages in silver/NMC and gray colours. Perhaps black had been predominant on early production Blenheims (both Mk.I and Mk.IV) and that lighter colours replaced it later. Probably members of this forum with better knowledge on the subject will soon step in and prove or disprove this hypothesis. Regards Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Life magazine took a series of colour photographs of Blenheim I's in the Far East and these have, relatively recently, seen the light of day. The main legs appear to be a light grey colour Dennis I'd concur with that but some of the black and white Life photos taken at the same time appear to show black painted main legs and struts on some aircraft. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Ekedahl Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Thanks Nick and Jure. Seems like I have opened a small can of worms here. As the saying goes, still confused but on a higher level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Dunno if this helps - Blenheim wreckage in the Libyan desert. Clearly the centre-section has interior green paint still visible. The area at the undercarriage looks to be aluminium to me. (Source: http://cspottiswoode.free.fr/LibyanDesert/Desert/Historical/Blenheims/Blenheims.htm) Cheers,Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Ekedahl Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 Dunno if this helps - Blenheim wreckage in the Libyan desert. Clearly the centre-section has interior green paint still visible. The area at the undercarriage looks to be aluminium to me. (Source: http://cspottiswoode.free.fr/LibyanDesert/Desert/Historical/Blenheims/Blenheims.htm) Cheers, Mark At least the top photo confirms that the bomb bay, visible on the left, was painted interior green. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 This is the remains of Blenheim VIF Z7513 of 15 Squadron AAF. The sad story is here :- www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/blenheims.htm Photos from Air Pictorial circa 1959/60 I believe :- A sombre story as to just how deadly the desert can be. I used it when briefing new arrivals at Dhahran in the late 80's/early 90's period. Dennis 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Ekedahl Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) This is the remains of Blenheim VIF Z7513 of 15 Squadron AAF. The sad story is here :- www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/blenheims.htm Photos from Air Pictorial circa 1959/60 I believe :- A sombre story as to just how deadly the desert can be. I used it when briefing new arrivals at Dhahran in the late 80's/early 90's period. Dennis Quite similar to the story of the B-24 "Lady be good". Edited June 9, 2016 by Sten Ekedahl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 I'd heard that story about the Blenheim. Truly sad and awful way for the crew to die. Heard about "Lady be Good" as a teenager and have nothing but admiration for the grit and determination of that crew. Simply an amazingly sad story. Back to things Blenheim, I found the pic below in my archives of Blenheim wreckage in France. I found it online a couple of years ago but recent searches failed to re-discover it. Anyhoo...it might be helpful, notwithstanding questions of whether or not it's colourized (I'm pretty sure it's the real deal...and even if it's not, the colours look pretty good to me). Hope this helps add some more details to the overall picture regarding Blenheim internal colours. Cheers,Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 If it helps in relocating it: That pic was posted in a thread that must have been current ca. 2 years ago, around the time I joined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCromie Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) The text states " a long-barrel 20-mm. cannon". Can anyone elaborate further on what type of cannon this is likely to be? I presume that it is not the same type of cannon installed in the wings of Spitfires etc so I was wondering it might be? I have a bit of a thing for "different" versions of standard aircraft and it looks like this could make an interesting build. Knowing what type of cannon is meant would allow me to work out how it was likely to be installed and from there what modifications would need to be made to the interior of the kit. All suggestions greatly appreciated DC Edited June 10, 2016 by DaveCromie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) I can't think of any reason to presume it wasn't taken from, say, a scrap Spitfire Vb, given that that would be obvious source for an in-theatre maintenance unit to get their hands on a surplus 20mm cannon suitable for mounting in an aeroplane. And with the drum feed it would be a simple installation. I suppose it's just about possible that they might have raided their own anti-aircraft defences for an RAF Regiment 20mm Oerlikon, if they had them in theatre, but that doesn't make a great deal of military sense if you can pick up a surplus fighter weapon from a scrap airframe. However, if they did then it would look similar to the one in this pic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HMS_Dido_gun.jpg Edited June 10, 2016 by Work In Progress 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCromie Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Hi Work In Progress It is the "long barrel" comment that makes me think that they are referring to an Oerlikon but as you say raiding your own AAA doesn't make a lot of sense. If they were using a Spitfire cannon, I don't think they would have referred to it as being a "long barrel" but we all know the risks of trying to figure out what other people mean! I reckon an Oerlikon would be a lot more interesting to model though...... Cheer DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Not a great pic but it does show the cannon barrel in another SAAF Blenheim MkIVf: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) The Hispano II solution (technically a Hispano HS.404) is much more likely than the Oerlikon. It is certainly an enormously long-barrelled weapon in the context of the normal .303 armament for the type (see pic below) and in this case was evidently mounted so that the muzzle protruded forward of the normal nose. More importantly from the point of view of people writing from a post-war perspective, as in the case of the quoted magazine article, the Hispano II could be referred to as a long-barrel 20mm to distinguish it from the later, much shorter, Hispano V, which was frequently referred to as the (wait for it) "short-barrel Hispano 20mm". Here's a pic which shows why. Top: Browning 303 as fitted in the Blenheim 1f and early Spitfires. Next down, Browning .5. Next down, short-barrel Hispano V probably out of a Tempest or similar. Bottom: Hispano II as fitted to the Spitfire Vb, showing off its extravagant length rather well. Edited June 10, 2016 by Work In Progress 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) The Hispano II solution (technically a Hispano HS.404) is much more likely than the Oerlikon. It is certainly an enormously long-barrelled weapon in the context of the normal .303 armament for the type (see pic below) and in this case was evidently mounted so that the muzzle protruded forward of the normal nose. More importantly from the point of view of people writing from a post-war perspective, as in the case of the quoted magazine article, the Hispano II could be referred to as a long-barrel 20mm to distinguish it from the later, much shorter, Hispano V, which was frequently referred to as the (wait for it) "short-barrel Hispano 20mm". Here's a pic which shows why. Top: Browning 303 as fitted in the Blenheim 1f and early Spitfires. Next down, Browning .5. Next down, short-barrel Hispano V probably out of a Tempest or similar. Bottom: Hispano II as fitted to the Spitfire Vb, showing off its extravagant length rather well. As an aside, The reason Mk II Hispano had a long barrel was it was originally designed as a "Moteur Canon" to fit through the central "V" of Hispano Suisa 12Y aircraft engine, and fire through the centre of the prop spinner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_HS.404#/media/File:Morane_D.3801_Le_Bourget.jpg Selwyn Edited June 10, 2016 by Selwyn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejboyd5 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Re photo in post #14: http://www.vintag.es/2013/06/color-photos-of-british-aircrafts-in.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory is the idea that the gun was an Italian Breda, available some time before cannon-armed Spitfires reached the theatre. Will try and find chapter and verse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 Not impossible by any means providing whoever swiped it from the Italians had also swiped enough ammunition to make the effort worth while. There are records of the Breda Model 35 being used by some of the more informal units on both sides of the continuing desert war, including LRDG. An old site reachable via the Wayback Machine is of assistance, about two thirds of the way down https://web.archive.org/web/20070913121658/http://www.btinternet.com:80/~ian.a.paterson/equipartillery.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveCromie Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) mhaselden Interesting image and it gives me an idea about how far the barrel would protrude. Work in Progress I had no knowledge of the Hispano Mk II until your post! That looks just about exactly what I would be looking for. The Breda on that website could also be very interesting! Selwyn That makes a lot of sense, handy to know too! Seahawk Interesting concept, I really hope you can find something to back it up. Cheers peeps! DC Edited June 11, 2016 by DaveCromie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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