British Khaki Green No.3 colour confusion

[Simon]

Hello everyone

I'm busy with some vehicles to go with an R.A.F. Stirling diorama from the late 1941 period. At this time they would be painted in Khaki Green No.3 with Nobel's Dark Tarmac disruptive camouflage. I've just bought a copy of Mike Starmer's excellent reference 'Brirish Army Colours and Disruptive Camouflage in the UK, France and NW Europe, 1936-1945' , which has a mix for KG3 using Revell acrylics 361/360/84. I've mixed up a small sample to see how close I can get, and it's pretty close to the swatch in the back of the book

However, prior to getting the book I'd bought a bottle of MIG Productions 113 'Khaki Green No.3 (Brit. 1939-1942)', and tried some of that as a test.

So, here are the two Khaki Greens, plus a sample of Revell 78 standing in for Dark Tarmac, as recommended in the book (usual caveats about screen colours etc, but the difference in tones are pretty close):

The MIG 115 KG3 is way, way lighter than I'd have thought it should be, and more yellowy - more like R.A.F. Dark Earth in lightness and tone, and the Revell KG3 mix is darker than the Revell 78 - I'd assumed that the grey would be a bit more dark than the KG3, like this:

I realise 'scale effect' usually means making colours lighter, so I can of course lighten up the Revell 360/361/84 mix, but I see Trackpads also do a Khaki Green No. 3 in their D.O.A. range, but their website has been 'down for maintenance' for a few days, so I wondered if anyone had seen their version?

Many thanks

Simon

[JackG]

To my eyes, none of those posted swatches could be considered a near match to what is seen in the period photo. I do have some DOA paints, but unfortunately not the Khaki Green No. 3.

I found this sample mixing using Mike Starmer's formula for Vallejo ModelColor, and visually, it does look to be an acceptable match when compared to the photo:

http://mojobob.blogspot.ca/2010/11/khaki-green-3-in-vallejo-paints.html

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

Hello everyone

I'm busy with some vehicles to go with an R.A.F. Stirling diorama from the late 1941 period. At this time they would be painted in Khaki Green No.3 with Nobel's Dark Tarmac disruptive camouflage. I've just bought a copy of Mike Starmer's excellent reference 'Brirish Army Colours and Disruptive Camouflage in the UK, France and NW Europe, 1936-1945' , which has a mix for KG3 using Revell acrylics 361/360/84. I've mixed up a small sample to see how close I can get, and it's pretty close to the swatch in the back of the book

However, prior to getting the book I'd bought a bottle of MIG Productions 113 'Khaki Green No.3 (Brit. 1939-1942)', and tried some of that as a test.

So, here are the two Khaki Greens, plus a sample of Revell 78 standing in for Dark Tarmac, as recommended in the book (usual caveats about screen colours etc, but the difference in tones are pretty close):

The MIG 115 KG3 is way, way lighter than I'd have thought it should be, and more yellowy - more like R.A.F. Dark Earth in lightness and tone, and the Revell KG3 mix is darker than the Revell 78 - I'd assumed that the grey would be a bit more dark than the KG3, like this:

I realise 'scale effect' usually means making colours lighter, so I can of course lighten up the Revell 360/361/84 mix, but I see Trackpads also do a Khaki Green No. 3 in their D.O.A. range, but their website has been 'down for maintenance' for a few days, so I wondered if anyone had seen their version?

Many thanks

Simon

Simon

the Churchill above is in SCC2 Brown, not Khaki Green G.3

I'd trust Mike Starmer over Mig myself. Mike is a member here so hopefully he'll pitch in.

HTH

[Simon]

Thanks for the replies gents, and thanks for pointing out the correct colour of the Churchill Troy - oops!

As I mentioned, the Revell colour mix I made pretty closely matches the swatch in the back of Mike's book, certainly in the lightness/darkness of tone, if not 100% colour-wise, althought it's not way out (it was a 'quickie' test mix, rather than exact).

So the MIG colour completely threw me when I compared the two, as it was so much lighter. I was just a little concerned the Revell mix would look too dark on a 1/72 model, so wondered if the D.O.A. KG3 was more 'to scale'?

Simon

[JackG]

Another build here, this time using the Tamiya formula from Starmer - just gives a better idea of the colour:

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/britain/vickerslighttankmkvibbg_1.html

Same here, I would trust Mike's research over any of the other bottled paints. I often read that many of those brands that have risen from the 'artistic school' tend to be more concerned with aesthetics than accuracy.

About the DOA paints, I don't recall Mike Starmer ever backing them. His only comment to be found concerned the Cauter paints, wherein his sample appeared way off.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1336659513

regards,

Jack

[The original Kit Builder]

Have a look at Humbrol 159, which is a khaki green. Mixing in some white and/or 155 Olive Drab gives a useful tonal palette depending on proportions.

It's also an easy way to get faded/scale adjusted French Artillery Green and Australian Drab Olive Lustreless.

[demiles]

had a look on my reference sheets and recommends for Khaki Green No. 3/G3/Service Green: Revell 361 (Emerald Green) + 360 (Yellowish Green) + 84 (Leather Brown) in ratios 12:5:7.

if you are using vallejao the equivalents are rev 361 = vall 850/81(Medium Olive) rev 360 922/84 (Uniform Green) rev 84= vall 871/147 (Leather Brown).

Edited June 3, 2016 by demiles

[Simon]

Now I'm confused (again!).

The pot of Revell 361 I have is 36360, and it's called Fern Green, and the 361 I have is 36361 Olive Green - both are Silk in finish:

http://www.revell.de/en/products/colors-glue-co/aqua-color.html

I see they do an Emerald Green (Gloss), no. 36161, and an Olive Yellow (Matt), No. 36142, a much browner shade than either of the greens, which I've seen also called Yellowish Olive online here.

Mike in his book gives a mix of Revell 361 Dark Green and Revell 360 Green, together with 84 Leather Brown. So have I mixed the wrong Revell paints, or have they changed their paints' names and numbers jiust to add to my confusion?

Simon

[demiles]

Simon,

can see your confusion. I used a revell conversion chart with these names but checking the enamel site
http://www.revell.de/en/products/colors-glue-co/email-color.html
the colours are as follows:
32360 Fern Green;
32361 Olive Green
32184 Leather Brown

Sorry if I added to situation.

David

[Simon]

Thanks for the clarification David, much appreciated. I'm going to try both the Revell and Vallejo mixes - the Vallejo one posted by Jack seems to allow for scale effect, so it will be interesting to see the two mixes together!

Regards

Simon

[Simon]

So, here's the Vallejo mix, against the Revell 361/360/84 mix, and the sample in the swatch from Jack's post:

I've some some Photoshop jiggery-pokery to adjust my colours slightly to the colour swatch jpeg, but hopefully this shows the variation in the lightness and darkness of the 2 mixes and the MIG paint.

Simon

[Bob Gregory]

For scale affect I do like the Mig G3 and yes, the Churchill is SCC2. From actual surviving paint I have seen G3 is a brownish green. In my opinion some modelers make it too brown. The MIG swatch is too light but on a model might look good, Here is G3 from an old BEF motorcycle.

[demiles]

Hi Simon

lifted from mafva

http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/starmer%20camo.htm

British Vehicle Camouflage, 1939-45. This summary is © Mike Starmer and Mike Cooper, 2008.

NON-BS COLOURS 1940-42.

Khaki Green No. 3/ G3/ “Service Colour”

Mix: Revell 361+ 360 + 84 in ratios 12:5:7. Not easy but the only way yet. This is matched to two 1939 original equipment samples and a replicated 1941 sample.

In use: 1938 – 42. The new basic colour until replaced in 1942 by S.C.C. 2. Used with G4 and less often with G5 or occasionally on its own. This is specified as alternative dark tone in Middle East ‘Caunter’ scheme. Used in this scheme the colour assumes a definite ‘chocolate brown’ hue.

Description: This is a dark rich brown looking yellow–green. Higher contrast with G5 and much less so with Dark Green G4.

For dyed canvas tilts use Revell 360 + 361 + 84 in ratio 3:3:1 or just slightly less brown.

I can see from your photo that this mix is quiet green but according to Mike Starmer the mix is right when compared to an original. All I can say is good luck and go with what you think is best.

David

[Simon]

Thanks once again for the replies everyone, it's much appreciated.

I've re-tried a mix of the Revell 361/360/84, and added a touch of white to lighten it, plus a smidge of Vallejo 921, and it seems to be a pretty good match for the bike side panel posted by Bob. It's more green than the Vallejo mix but about the same lightness/darkness, and darker and more green than the MIG DG3. The best way to describe it is that it looks green next to something brown, but brown next to something green - a bit nowt nor summat really.

I'll get some airbrushed onto one of my vehicles, and post the result.

Simon

EDIT

Here's the new mix, with a camparison to MIG DG 3, as well as Xtracrylix RAF Darth Earth and RAF Dark Green on my Stirling cockpit canopy:

Edited June 6, 2016 by Simon

[Bob Gregory]

For what it's worth, I went out and purchased the Mig G3 and I'm very happy with it, painted it on a piece of paper and the shade is darker than what you posted and looks identical to the samples I have of actual G3. I also may lighten it a bit for scale. I would have hoped Mig did a G4 for the disruptive.

[Simon]

Well, after a bit of experimentation, here is my take on DG3. This is the Airfix 1/72 Bedford MWD, and their 1/76 AEC Matador:

The DG3 is 'my' take on Mike Starmer's mix as per post #14, plus Revell 78 for Nobel's Tarmac, and the MWD's canvas canopy is S.C.C.7 and S.C.C.1a.

It will all tone down a bit when I've added some weathering.

Cheers

Simon

Edited June 25, 2016 by Simon

[Mike Starmer]

You cannot mix KG3 using Vallejo 'equivalents' to Revell colours. There are simply equivalents, not matches. Different ratio of pigments are used in both companies colours, even small changes can make a noticeable difference to the final colour. Since I originally formulated the swatch in my book, I discovered that Humbrol have changed the formuli for H155 olive dab and H10 brown. I used new tins bought in 2015. I did some tests and found that 5 x H155 and 1 x H10 will give a very close match to my helmet colour. The result is a satin but no more than the original Revell mix, so matt varnish overall when dry.

The AK sample I have was too light, it needed brown and green. Basically a long way off the original.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Mike was the Colourcoats Khaki Green 3 ok?

I am aware that the first batch of colours under White Ensign Models had a few colours that were off. The records we have show that some were updated a number of years back, which I understand to be in response to comments by yourself?

[Simon]

You cannot mix KG3 using Vallejo 'equivalents' to Revell colours. There are simply equivalents, not matches. Different ratio of pigments are used in both companies colours, even small changes can make a noticeable difference to the final colour. Since I originally formulated the swatch in my book, I discovered that Humbrol have changed the formuli for H155 olive dab and H10 brown. I used new tins bought in 2015. I did some tests and found that 5 x H155 and 1 x H10 will give a very close match to my helmet colour. The result is a satin but no more than the original Revell mix, so matt varnish overall when dry.

The AK sample I have was too light, it needed brown and green. Basically a long way off the original.

Mike

Not sure what you mean, as I haven't used Vallejo 'equivalents' to Revell colours: see post #14: "a mix of the Revell 361/360/84, and added a touch of white to lighten it, plus a smidge of Vallejo 921."

Simon

EDIT - photos in post #14 fixed now - apologies for messing them up.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Simon

[Merlin]

Hi,

I would be interested to know the answer to Jamies question on Sovereigns Colourcoats mix of Khaki Green No.3 asked of Mike Starmer as well.

In fact has someone the original paint chip chart they could photo in the shade on a cloudy day at mid-day (blue sky makes things take on a blue tint in fact !)  with a decent camera like a digital SLR using AdobeRGB colour profile (not sRGB) as sTGB has a smaller colour gamut on greens, in other words its green blind to more greens than Adobe, a lot more !

Photos taken on cameras with sRGB colour space dont capture the greens as we see them ! Also the internet uses sRGB which doesnt help !

Lots of talk about these colours but seeing the colours we are supposed to be creating speaks volumes.

 

Cheers

 

Merlin

Edited December 15, 2020 by Merlin

[Troy Smith]

@Merlin  you can 'tag' members by typing the '@'  symbol, and then starting the user name, a drop down list should appear, click on the relevant name.

This will notify a member they have been mentioned in a thread,    so if you @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies he maybe able to help.

 

Jamie uses a colourimter or spectrometer gadget,  he did post the details of this,  which gives a far more accurate reading than can be done by eye. 

 

 

[Merlin]

Hi Troy,

Just revisiting this thread but see the conversation hasnt continued. I will try what you suggest. however not once as I typed the name did MikeStarmer prompt appear, so this may not work. It picked up on Jamies no problem.

@Mike Starmer  did Jamie's Khaki Green No.3 match your works ? @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies

 

I wish Jamie did Nobels Dark Tarmac Green No.4 and Light Green No.5 to go with his other British Military vehicle colours, especially as the RAF vehicles also used the colours.

 

Merlin

Edited July 28, 2021 by Merlin

[Kingsman]

The problem with any colour involving the word "khaki" is the word "khaki", which as a colour reference is entirely useless.   It is no more useful than "dark", "light" or "pale".  As I'm sure you all know it just means "dust" and originally meant North-West Frontier dust: Afghanistan.  Even in the British Army there were many shades of "khaki".  The WW1 "khaki" uniforms were distinctly green whereas the WW2 "khaki" battledress was distinctly brown and the 1908 and 1937 pattern "khaki" webbing was very much sandier than both.

 

For what it's worth I like the Vallejo Model Air Green G3 OOB, as below.  A distinctly brownish green.  Other opinions are available of course.........  The G4 here is Hataka's.

 

[Steben]

[Steben]

The current overhaul and repaint of "the princess royal" is IMHO a great KG3 example.
Notice how in sunlight and surrounding it looks almost SCC2 and in shade almost US Olive Drab. That is pure KG3 behaviour to me and matches with the behaviour of Starmer's chips.