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RAF Aldergrove film 1940


Pete in Lincs

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Part of the film can be partially dated.

At 1:52 some Hurricanes are landing. On one you can see the underside is half black/half sky with roundels on each wing, so that makes that section at least from November 1940 to April 23rd 1941. The Hurricanes would be 245 squadron, the only Hurricane squadron to be there during that time.

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Thanks for that, great to see these very early colour films and reminiscent of the 601 Sqn colour footage, part of which was shown on that Dig 1940 programme a few years back.

Also nice from a modeller's perspective how you can see the hard edged difference between the dark earth and dark green on the various aircraft.

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Part of the film can be partially dated.

At 1:52 some Hurricanes are landing. On one you can see the underside is half black/half sky with roundels on each wing, so that makes that section at least from November 1940 to April 23rd 1941. The Hurricanes would be 245 squadron, the only Hurricane squadron to be there during that time.

Just one thing here, can we be certain that the undersides are sky and black on the undersides or could they be white and black which would obviously date to earlier in 1940?

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Just one thing here, can we be certain that the undersides are sky and black on the undersides or could they be white and black which would obviously date to earlier in 1940?

They look like white and night to me. The Anson and Whitley look more like early 1940.

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They look like white and night to me. The Anson and Whitley look more like early 1940.

That's exactly what I was thinking Jim. Although it's just a passing glimpse I couldn't see any hint of a yellow ring on the roundel on the night side wing which would be usual for a post BoB, very late 1940s day fighter markings of Sky/Night undersides.

Wonderful footage.

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Answer;

A ; the first and only Hurricane squadron to arrive at Aldergrove in 1940 was 245 squadron in June 1940. There were no other Hurricanes in Northern Ireland until 245 sqd was allocated to Aldergrove for the defence of Belfast. When they arrived from Scotland their unders were painted Sky.

B : Half white/half black did not have roundels under the wings

C : Half black/half white predates 245 sqd's arrival at Aldergrove.

D : the yellow out-line was optional, if used it was not to go onto the control surfaces.

ergo; they are 245 squadron Hurricanes, with sky under one wing and night black under the other as ordered in November 1940 and which were to be removed by April 23rd in an AMO of April 9th 1941 [9th afair], with roundels which were ordered on during August 1940.

With 23 MU based at Aldergrove all RAF aeroplanes were looked after promptly and well cared for.

Just a few weeks ago I gave a long lecture/talk on the Belfast Blitz which encompassed 245 sqd.

One other thing; the 18 to 20 minutes of this film is not one continuous film taken in one short period. It is a number of short 2 to 3 minutes films spliced together.

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My understanding of the variations of the day fighter undersurface finishes were as follows;

Night/ White from April 1939 to June 1940

A variation was introduced applied to aircraft already delivered in service with aluminium undersides which was to split the wing surface into Night and White with underwing roundels from June 1940.

December 1940 introduced Night port wings to Sky undersides along with duck egg blue spinner and fuselage bands. Underwing roundels with a yellow outline to port wing.

Of course the exception proves the rule but as I mentioned before, the schemes of the Whitley and Anson do point to the first part of 1940.

Hurricane L1754, DZ E of 151 Squadron based at Martlesham Heath in May 1940 sported Night/ White undersides and underwing roundels with no yellow outline just to quote one documented example.

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Answer;

A ; the first and only Hurricane squadron to arrive at Aldergrove in 1940 was 245 squadron in June 1940. There were no other Hurricanes in Northern Ireland until 245 sqd was allocated to Aldergrove for the defence of Belfast. When they arrived from Scotland their unders were painted Sky.

B : Half white/half black did not have roundels under the wings

C : Half black/half white predates 245 sqd's arrival at Aldergrove.

D : the yellow out-line was optional, if used it was not to go onto the control surfaces.

ergo; they are 245 squadron Hurricanes, with sky under one wing and night black under the other as ordered in November 1940 and which were to be removed by April 23rd in an AMO of April 9th 1941 [9th afair], with roundels which were ordered on during August 1940.

With 23 MU based at Aldergrove all RAF aeroplanes were looked after promptly and well cared for.

Just a few weeks ago I gave a long lecture/talk on the Belfast Blitz which encompassed 245 sqd.

One other thing; the 18 to 20 minutes of this film is not one continuous film taken in one short period. It is a number of short 2 to 3 minutes films spliced together.

Looking at the film again it is also clear that the Hurricane has a black spinner which does not fit into the later sky and night scheme.

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Assuming the film is all taken at Aldergrove;

Balance this then;

There were NO other Hurricanes in Northern Ireland until 245 Squadron arrived from Drem. They were ordered to Aldergrove in June and arrived late of the first week of July. By this date all fighters should have had sky unders and no roundels.

It was noted that when 245 sqd arrived their unders were painted sky but the top sides needed repainting. They received roundels in August 1940 according to AMO.

Photos of 245 sqd Hurricanes in early December '40 show they still had black spinners and no tail band.

No other fighters, Hurricanes or otherwise, were present in N.I. during the early summer of 1940. 245 was the only squadron present until some Spitfire squadrons arrived for R&R in May '41.

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No fighter squadrons were passing through. No where to go to. Scotland/North of England to N.I. is the limit of a Hurricane or Spitfire endurance. No reason to deviate to N.I. if flying from Glasgow area to Liverpool/Manchester area.

The N.I. government pleaded with the main British government to send fighters as there wasn't a single one in N.I. during the summer of '40.

The presence of a Whitley also puts part of the film between October '40 when 502 re-equiped with them and January '41 when 502 moved out to St. Eval.

A possibility;

May have been filmed elsewhere

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I think you're ignoring the possibility that they were simply visiting Hurricanes. Perhaps no more than a navex or some other training flight. Perhaps they dropped in for fuel. There are no shots of them on the ground, surely an irresistible opportunity for the photographer.

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I think it is safe to assume that not all RAF directives regarding changing of paint schemes were carried out the date that the order was issued and that other more pressing issues occupied some squadrons at this crucial time.

You can only assume that if the scheme has been changed, then it is some time after the date the order was issued IMHO.

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There is no guarantee that all of these short pieces were filmed at the same time, or even (though perhaps more likely) at the same place.

However, the undersides were used as an identity guide by the Observer Corps, a key factor in identifying friendly and enemy movements permitting the control of the battle. Whatever the inevitable delays in introducing some of these changes. it seems reasonable to assume that the undersides would have a high priority. Even when a specific date "by which" had not been specified.

To me, the balance of the evidence is in favour of the later date. In particular, it seems very impractical that single-engined fighters would have been given a navex that took them so far over water, which rather lacks good references for appropriate en-route checks. I'd expect fighter navexs of the period to have had much shorter legs. There were not exactly a lot of Hurricane bases on the west coast of England making this a short(er) hop. Throw in the unlikelihood of going to a base without appropriate-to-type spares in the event of unserviceability. No tyres, no props to cover a poor landing. The logistics of supply in the event of problems is not as simple as for other bases on the mainland Such and much more would have been provided in advance of 245 Sqn moving in.

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There is no guarantee that all of these short pieces were filmed at the same time, or even (though perhaps more likely) at the same place.

However, the undersides were used as an identity guide by the Observer Corps, a key factor in identifying friendly and enemy movements permitting the control of the battle. Whatever the inevitable delays in introducing some of these changes. it seems reasonable to assume that the undersides would have a high priority. Even when a specific date "by which" had not been specified.

To me, the balance of the evidence is in favour of the later date. In particular, it seems very impractical that single-engined fighters would have been given a navex that took them so far over water, which rather lacks good references for appropriate en-route checks. I'd expect fighter navexs of the period to have had much shorter legs. There were not exactly a lot of Hurricane bases on the west coast of England making this a short(er) hop. Throw in the unlikelihood of going to a base without appropriate-to-type spares in the event of unserviceability. No tyres, no props to cover a poor landing. The logistics of supply in the event of problems is not as simple as for other bases on the mainland Such and much more would have been provided in advance of 245 Sqn moving in.

So I am a bit confused as to what you are saying Graham? If you are in favour of the later date then surely the scheme would have been changed to have the sky blue spinner and tail band if, as you are saying, that the schemes would have been changed quickly to aid recognition.

The photographic evidence is far more in favour of an earlier dates if you look at the schemes of the Anson and the Whitley and it is only the historical evidence supplied by Black Knight which leans towards a later date.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I think it is unlikely that Hurricanes would appear in Northern Ireland by the means suggested for the earlier date. It is more likely that a Whitley could have appeared on a navex (deliberately or otherwise), but to me the film does suggest more than one Whitley, which again points to a later date. If photo(s) of Hurricanes at a confirmed date of December 1940 still show black (or at least dark) spinners, then this cannot be used as convincing evidence of an earlier date for this piece of film. It might be interesting (if not of definitive help!) to know whether these Hurricanes were fresh from the factory or hauled out of the dark recesses of some MU, or even if they were consistently so marked.

None of this is absolute proof that some Hurricanes and/or Whitleys weren't seen across the Irish Sea earlier. However, on the evidence presented so far, I think the probability is higher that these are later shots spliced into the film. I see no problem with the Anson film being earlier.

I'm not one to criticise the idea of extrapolation from what can be made out of an aircraft's camouflage and markings. Far from it, but given a choice between historical evidence or opinion based on such extrapolation, then I think the opinion requires rather more evidence than presented so far. For example, let's have some spotter's account of Hurricanes being seen in NI earlier in 1940. That would swing the matter.

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Yes I see where you are coming from now Graham!

I would love to see some historical evidence of a Hurricane in sky/ black undersides sporting a black propeller and no tail band in the European theatre of operations as It would give me another scheme to paint in my every increasing collection of model Hurricanes which I never get around to painting!

That's what this site is all about!

Regards

Jim

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N.I. government records [ie letter and minutes of meetings] in the PRONI asking for fighters for the protection of Belfast as there wasn't a single fighter in the whole of N.I. and the Churchill government response that only one squadron could be spared and would be allocated. Letters exchanged early June '40. [There was one Gladiator, but it was an un-armed Met flight one]

There are no records at all of any fighters of any type being in N.I. for any reason, between December '39 and the first week of July '40.

The response was 245 being ordered to Aldergrove in late June. Arrival of Hurricanes was complete at the end of the first week of July.

245 brought with them the Hurricanes they had, some of which had seen earlier use in pre-BoB channel fighting in other squadrons.

Problem with Observer Corps reports for N.I. ~ in 1940 there were no OC in N.I., just 15 'volunteers' [belfast 5, Bangor/Newtownards 5, London/Derry 5] for the whole of the country. The 'volunteers' were not very good; mistaking a Heinkel 115 mine laying in Belfast Lough for a 'Sunderland or other type' and not reporting other sightings until months later.

Its very unbelievable but very true how little N.I. had in comparison to the rest of the UK.

I could deviate, but won't.

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I am leaning towards the Hurricanes not being filmed at Aldergrove due to Black Knight's evidence.

Whatever the issues it's a cracking piece of film and thanks very much for sharing Pete. I love the Anson details especially.

Regards

Jim

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Hang on in there, Jim, I'm going the other way! The dates are important. No change in my opinion about Hurricanes in May, but the end of June is only two-three weeks after the introduction of Sky. I've recently seen - probably on this site - a comment on an AM memo warning that aircraft were still to be seen with the black/white underside. Presumably this was because of the problems with the availability of Sky. Given that 245 was formed with a ragbag of Hurricanes for sending to a comparative backwater, outside the main Fighter Command network, it's a pretty safe guess that it wouldn't have ranked highly in the priorities for repainted examples.

It may be relevant (but probably isn't) that the Middle East also retained black-white undersides, as recently discussed by Paul Lucas in SAcM.

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In this very thread Graham I pointed out that aircraft supplied with Aluminium services were repainted black/ white undersides to the wings from June 1940 according to my references.

I am convinced that the Hurricanes in the film are in this scheme (But can't prove it!) and Black Knight has supplied evidence to indicate that they couldn't be at Aldergrove so if they were filmed elsewhere and spliced onto the film then it would tick a lot of boxes. I bow to Black Knight's knowledge of the subject.

I would also seriously love to be shown a Hurricane with sky/ night undersides with a black prop and no tale band!

Can anybody help?

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​Actually at it's closest Ireland and Scotland are only eleven miles apart maybe three minutes flight time at Hurricane speeds. So no real barrier to a single engined fighter. But I only throw that out the idea of fleeting visitors as a possibility.

In truth I believe that most likely they were 245 Hurricanes if it was filmed at Aldergrove. But what time period? I had another look at the video and in my opinion the Hurricane sequence shows leaves on the trees. Plus the quality of the light suggest suggests summer at least to me. That wouldn't fit in with the sky/black plus roundels time frame in November 1940. But it would fit in with the June/July arrival of 245.

Black Night says:

"The response was 245 being ordered to Aldergrove in late June. Arrival of Hurricanes was complete at the end of the first week of July.

245 brought with them the Hurricanes they had, some of which had seen earlier use in pre-BoB channel fighting in other squadrons."

Over Dunkirk perhaps? 245 was at Dunkirk and wasn't there an order to add roundels to the underside of Hurricanes operating over France? Remember the battle of France had only just ended in June. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that not all the Hurricanes in the squadron had been repainted sky by the time they landed in Aldergrove? Given the chaos of the times shortly after the fall of France and Dunkirk. This has to be a possibility.

On the other hand you could argue that the film was made in April 1941 when the leaves were beginning to appear on the trees again. But no sign of a sky band or spinner which rules that idea out.

For me it suggests he filmed the Hurricanes arriving at Aldergrove. It just so happened that the clearest shots are of a yet to be painted Dunkirk veteran.

Edit: Just saw Graham's comments. That would fit in with my idea.


Edited by noelh
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