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Mig-21 Egyptian Air Force help!


nirvanagr

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Hi guys.

I am going to build the Academy Mig-21PF 1/48 kit.

I'm looking for info and photos of the following aircraft:

http://www.english-for-flyaways.de/albums/userpics/EAF_MiG_300_dpi.jpg

http://img1.pictaero.com/2009/05/24/s/43349.jpg

On the first picture it's a Mig-21MF if i'm not wrong.

Actually, i like the aircraft on the second photo.

My question here is, did it ever fly in Egyptian markings wearing the above camouflage (without the orange)?

Also, did the PF version wear this camo without orange color?

Thank you in advance, mates.

Greetings.

Yannis

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Hi Yannis

this is always useful for pinning down what version is what...

http://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataversions.htm

photos of Arab MiG's are rare, so you may not get a definite answer

this maybe of interest

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=209&Itemid=47

note Tom Cooper is a member, and would be your best bet for info, he s also the author of Arab MiGs books.

Given that the Eduard kit can be got cheap, I'd not bother with the Academy kit, which has quite a few problems,

HTH

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Troy, i searched for Tom Cooper but i couldn't find him. What is his nickname on britmodeller?

unfortunately for us obscure airforces lovers, I heard something of a ban... mods will know! hope it is only temporary!

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/user/10270-tom-cooper/

some of his last posts were in this thread

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234989618-russian-aircraft-at-latakia/page-8

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Hi Yannis

Speaking from a top of my head I would say that both planes flew in such a camouflage. Orange fields had not been introduced until after the 1973 war anyway IIRC. Again, I suggest you to consult Arab MiGs books which are a great source of information on that topics. By the way, I hope Tom Cooper returns soon to this forum. There is also a Profile book (not the old Profile from the 60's though) from the 80's which is full of very good photos of Egypt MiGs. It came out just after Soviets fell out of favour and Americans stepped in. I have it somewhere and I just need some time to dig it out. Regards

Jure

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Hi, Yannis

I found the book in question (a Super Profile series) but unfortunately no joy, it was published before the new camouflage scheme had been introduced. Alas, I was probably off mark with my suggestion that both planes flew without orange markings. There is a photo of the MiG-21 PF in question, unfortunately in its original green/brown camouflage, published in Osprey's Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in combat. Apparently this ship was repainted with more recent camouflage colours later. Again, I can only suggest Arab MiGs books and you can also try ACIG web pages if they are still active. Regards

Jure

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I can't claim to be an expert, but I've never seen this camouflage used without the orange markings (IIRC this is the latest camo scheme). All Egyptian aircrafts I've seen without these markings were camouflaged in earlier schemes.

At the same time a number of MFs have been donated to Libya and carry this camouflage without orange markings and with the new Libyan insignia, may make for an interesting model

Edited by Giorgio N
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Speaking from a top of my head I would say that both planes flew in such a camouflage. Orange fields had not been introduced until after the 1973 war anyway IIRC.

Orange identification triangle have been introduced during the short border conflict between Libya and Egypt in 1977, as both air forces were flying Mirage and MiGs.

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Yannis,

May I suggest you go a different, much safer and attractive :smartass: route and build this:

8075a.jpg

http://edokunscalemodelingpage.blogspot.ro/2014/01/egyptian-air-force-mig-21pfs-in-1970.html

Just make sure to add the parabrake housing at the base of the fin of your PF.

Cheers,

Niki

P.S.: the livery you hinted at I have only seen flying on Egyptian MiG-21MF and upgraded Mirage 5. But I would be glad to be proven otherwise :thumbsup2:

Edited by niki
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Yannis,

May I suggest you go a different, much safer and attractive :smartass: route and build this:

8075a.jpg

http://edokunscalemodelingpage.blogspot.ro/2014/01/egyptian-air-force-mig-21pfs-in-1970.html

Just make sure to add the parabrake housing at the base of the fin of your PF.

Cheers,

Niki

P.S.: the livery you hinted at I have only seen flying on Egyptian MiG-21MF and upgraded Mirage 5. But I would be glad to be proven otherwise :thumbsup2:

the photo above I've seen dated 1981, but not sure it it's correct.

the bare metal panel on the spine is the result of fitting an extra fuel tank in Egypt.

I'm still working my way through Arab MiGs volume 4, but there it contains details of how the Egyptians modified the Migs drop tanks, making them considerably bigger, as lack of fuel capacity was a big problem.

The enlarged tanks were in time copied and adopted by the Soviets later.

The other oddity which has been ontroversial is in this thread

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234949599-mig-15-korean-war-camo-colours/page-2

Very nice. I'm looking forward for your other answers (and, I guess, not only I).

Meanwhile, let me address the 'core' issue again:

OK, let me specify and, I hope so, provide some help.
One might wonder, 'why should it be important to know the precise green colour [or any other shade] applied on V-VS/V-PVO MiG-15s deployed during Korean War'?
Well, one of reasons I really love modell-builders - and I stress here: 'enthusiasts', modell-builders that usually have no 'academic historian' background - is that there are plenty of them who are so damn precise in their work, in their search for reference materials. They are so much striving to 'produce' an as authentic modell as humanly possible, that without them we all would simply be clueless in the case of a huge number of topics. They are not only a fantastic source of information, but also so often 'driving' and motivating me to do additional research, that it's amazing. From my standpoint, it's beyond doubt that 'modelling' is often developing into an outright sort of science, meanwhile - and whether the 'true' academics might like this or not (that said, most of academic historians have no clue even about what a 'MiG-15' looks like).
This is not exclusively related to colour references, but to plenty of other issues too (just one of newest examples: I would never came to the idea that the ex-Queen Flight's Andover CC.Mk 2 was used to support Franco-Belgian mercenaries fighitng for Mobutu against Rwandan-led invasion of former Zaire, in 1996-1997 - without an 'enthusiast' like Phil Scoggins)
Related to this is the following fact: it is such 'enthusiasts' - 'modellers' - that we can thank for 'discovering' that for most of the 20th Century, the Soviet Union was using the so-called 'British Standard 381C' in production of its military-related paints. Definitely, this 'BS381C', not some 'own' tables, not the German RAL, or the US Federal Standard.
Why is this 'known' or anything like 'sure'?
That's thanks to several former employees of the Israeli Aircraft Industries. The gents in question have had the opportunity to compare various colour tables (US 'FS', 'BS381C' etc.) with original colours applied on various MiG-21s that were overhauled by the IAI in the 1990s. That's why gents (and modellers) like Yoav Efrati for example (guess, many here might know him for his fantastic features on Israeli combat aircraft in various modeller magazines), were extremely helpful in preparation of - very precise - colour references that one can meanwhile find in books like the Arab MiGs and African MiGs series.
Now, you might wonder why would any of African or Arab MiGs be 'imporant' in relation to Soviet MiG-15s from Korea: well, because they were originally all painted pre-delivery, in the USSR. And also because most of export customers in question continued purchasing and using Soviet-made colours for 'their' MiGs.
In turn, because of this, and because of your 'intervention' above, we now know that the colours issued to that 'Painters Brigade' assigned to the 64 IAK, were also based on the Soviet equivalent of the same, 'BS381C'.
And that, Yury, is narrowing the possible choice of paints mixed to create camo patterns applied on Soviet MiG-15s by quite some. Namely - and while I'll try not to exaggerate it, or turn this into some sort of 'hairsplitting': it makes quite some difference if one is
- a.) 'just using any green and black available in China as of the given time and place' to get 'his' colour; or,
- b.) if one is - just a 'wild' example (since we still do not yet know the exact shade) - mixing the BS381C/298 Olive Drab with BS381C/642 Night, or BS381C/220 Olive Green with any sort of Black.
So, I think you gents in Russia could kindly do us all a big favour and try to find one of involved painters. Somebody must still be around and know 'slightly more' about what colours they've got from the factory, and how did they mix them. If it was meanwhile possible to find out the exact shade of green used to paint most of T-34s manufactured and deployed in combat in WWII, it must be possible to find out about this too.
And, so I'm sure: whoever finds this out, and publishes his findings as first, is likely to become a kind of a 'star' in specific circles. ;-)

Very nice. I'm looking forward for your other answers (and, I guess, not only I).

Meanwhile, let me address the 'core' issue again:

OK, let me specify and, I hope so, provide some help.
One might wonder, 'why should it be important to know the precise green colour [or any other shade] applied on V-VS/V-PVO MiG-15s deployed during Korean War'?
Well, one of reasons I really love modell-builders - and I stress here: 'enthusiasts', modell-builders that usually have no 'academic historian' background - is that there are plenty of them who are so damn precise in their work, in their search for reference materials. They are so much striving to 'produce' an as authentic modell as humanly possible, that without them we all would simply be clueless in the case of a huge number of topics. They are not only a fantastic source of information, but also so often 'driving' and motivating me to do additional research, that it's amazing. From my standpoint, it's beyond doubt that 'modelling' is often developing into an outright sort of science, meanwhile - and whether the 'true' academics might like this or not (that said, most of academic historians have no clue even about what a 'MiG-15' looks like).
This is not exclusively related to colour references, but to plenty of other issues too (just one of newest examples: I would never came to the idea that the ex-Queen Flight's Andover CC.Mk 2 was used to support Franco-Belgian mercenaries fighitng for Mobutu against Rwandan-led invasion of former Zaire, in 1996-1997 - without an 'enthusiast' like Phil Scoggins)
Related to this is the following fact: it is such 'enthusiasts' - 'modellers' - that we can thank for 'discovering' that for most of the 20th Century, the Soviet Union was using the so-called 'British Standard 381C' in production of its military-related paints. Definitely, this 'BS381C', not some 'own' tables, not the German RAL, or the US Federal Standard.
Why is this 'known' or anything like 'sure'?
That's thanks to several former employees of the Israeli Aircraft Industries. The gents in question have had the opportunity to compare various colour tables (US 'FS', 'BS381C' etc.) with original colours applied on various MiG-21s that were overhauled by the IAI in the 1990s. That's why gents (and modellers) like Yoav Efrati for example (guess, many here might know him for his fantastic features on Israeli combat aircraft in various modeller magazines), were extremely helpful in preparation of - very precise - colour references that one can meanwhile find in books like the Arab MiGs and African MiGs series.
Now, you might wonder why would any of African or Arab MiGs be 'imporant' in relation to Soviet MiG-15s from Korea: well, because they were originally all painted pre-delivery, in the USSR. And also because most of export customers in question continued purchasing and using Soviet-made colours for 'their' MiGs.
In turn, because of this, and because of your 'intervention' above, we now know that the colours issued to that 'Painters Brigade' assigned to the 64 IAK, were also based on the Soviet equivalent of the same, 'BS381C'.
And that, Yury, is narrowing the possible choice of paints mixed to create camo patterns applied on Soviet MiG-15s by quite some. Namely - and while I'll try not to exaggerate it, or turn this into some sort of 'hairsplitting': it makes quite some difference if one is
- a.) 'just using any green and black available in China as of the given time and place' to get 'his' colour; or,
- b.) if one is - just a 'wild' example (since we still do not yet know the exact shade) - mixing the BS381C/298 Olive Drab with BS381C/642 Night, or BS381C/220 Olive Green with any sort of Black.
So, I think you gents in Russia could kindly do us all a big favour and try to find one of involved painters. Somebody must still be around and know 'slightly more' about what colours they've got from the factory, and how did they mix them. If it was meanwhile possible to find out the exact shade of green used to paint most of T-34s manufactured and deployed in combat in WWII, it must be possible to find out about this too.
And, so I'm sure: whoever finds this out, and publishes his findings as first, is likely to become a kind of a 'star' in specific circles. ;-)
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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

unfortunately for us obscure airforces lovers, I heard something of a ban... mods will know! hope it is only temporary!

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/user/10270-tom-cooper/

Edit: Straight from the horse's mouth. Tom got permanently banned for complaining to one of the mods about political posts made by another member. Sorry to disappoint his many fans but he wouldn't return even if they paid him.

Orange identification triangle have been introduced during the short border conflict between Libya and Egypt in 1977, as both air forces were flying Mirage and MiGs.

I have Air International magazines with photos from "Bright Star" exercises from 1981/82 (that's where the MiG-21PF photo previously posted comes from) and none show orange markings. They were adopted circa 1984-85. At that time the MiG-21PFs were no longer in service.

Hi guys.

I am going to build the Academy Mig-21PF 1/48 kit.

I'm looking for info and photos of the following aircraft:

http://img1.pictaero.com/2009/05/24/s/43349.jpg

My question here is, did it ever fly in Egyptian markings wearing the above camouflage (without the orange)?

Also, did the PF version wear this camo without orange color?

As already has been said by others that's the latest Egyptian scheme adopted decades after the MiG-21PFs were withdrawn.

Go with what Academy suggests... :whistle:

Edited by Panoz
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He's not coming back. Apparently got permanently banned for posting political commentary.

I have Air International magazines with photos from "Bright Star" exercises from 1981/82 (that's where the MiG-21PF photo previously posted comes from) and none show orange markings. They were adopted circa 1984-85. At that time the MiG-21PFs were no longer in service.

As already has been said by others that's the latest Egyptian scheme adopted decades after the MiG-21PFs were withdrawn.

Go with what Academy suggests... :whistle:

So, you suggest not to paint it in this sceme, don't you?

Did PFs fly with this camo even not in service or they wore it as static displays?

Thank you.

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So, you suggest not to paint it in this sceme, don't you?

Did PFs fly with this camo even not in service or they wore it as static displays?

Thank you.

As I previously posted the PFs had been withdrawn from service ages before this camo was adopted.

So it is not a good idea to paint it that way unless you want to represent a gate guard. :)

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