Early Whitley turrets

[Plastic Hacker]

Guys & Gals,

I am looking to convert the Airfix Whitley into an early version, probably a Mk.1 but am having trouble making sense of the turret options.

From various books, the Mk.I & II had an FN16 in the nose position and either an Armstrong-Whitworth AW.15 or AW.38 in the rear. The Mk.III had an FN (exact version?) up front and an AW.38 at the rear. I also know the first 12 Mk.Is had AW.13s in the nose and AW.12s at the rear (can I assume these were replaced by the FN16 and AW.15/38 later?).

My problem is all the photos I have found show turrets with a central gun with a sliding glazed "shutter" type layout that looks the same as that on the prototype Whitley and its predecessor the AW.23 transport. Surely the FN16 and the AW.12, 13, 15 & 38 can't all look the same?

Any clarification appreciated as I cannot make sense of it all.

PH

[Graham Boak]

Putnam's Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft states that the FN power-operated nose turret was introduced on the Mk.III, together with the ventral. I'd ignore any reference that says otherwise, unless it is known to be particularly good. And if so, please tell me what it is. Without knowing what the differences were between the AW turrets I can only suggest that there could well have been internal changes which did not affect the exterior shape. Or possibly a change from a Vickers gun to a Browning? (Just a guess, as a potential example, not based on any knowledge!)

[Seahawk]

R Wallace Clarke's British Aircraft Armament Vol 1 (PSL, 1993) refers to only one AW turret, as fitted to the Anson, Oxford, AW.29, DH Don and early Whitleys (installation in nose and tail). There is a photo of one in the tail position of a Whitley I.

It further says:

- "in 1938 the Whitley III appeared in which a retractable "dustbin" turret was added underneath and the manual front turret was replaced with the power-operated FN16." (p.106)

- "the FN4 (4-gun tail turret) was first used operationally in the Whitley IV" (p.108)

- "the FN17 (2-gun under turret) was installed in the early production Whitley I, II, III and IV but was soon taken out by operational squadrons. The turrets were not installed in any Whitleys after the Mk.IV."

- the FN20 was a redesigned FN4. A data table (p.201) confirms that it was fitted to Whitleys but presumably only to Whitley Vs.

The book makes no further mention of the FN16 so I have no idea what it looked like. With that proviso, I suggest that all turrets in early Whitleys look the same because the majority of them were Armstrong Whitworth manual turrets, which Clarke describes as "probably the most efficient hand-operated aircraft gun turret in service in the early 1930s".

Edited May 13, 2016 by Seahawk

[Selwyn]

R Wallace Clarke's British Aircraft Armament Vol 1 (PSL, 1993) refers to only one AW turret, as fitted to the Anson, Oxford, AW.29, DH Don and early Whitleys (installation in nose and tail). There is a photo of one in the tail position of a Whitley I.

It further says:

- "in 1938 the Whitley III appeared in which a retractable "dustbin" turret was added underneath and the manual front turret was replaced with the power-operated FN16." (p.106)

- "the FN4 (4-gun tail turret) was first used operationally in the Whitley IV" (p.108)

- "the FN17 (2-gun under turret) was installed in the early production Whitley I, II, III and IV but was soon taken out by operational squadrons. The turrets were not installed in any Whitleys after the Mk.IV."

- the FN20 was a redesigned FN4. A data table (p.201) confirms that it was fitted to Whitleys but presumably only to Whitley Vs.

The book makes no further mention of the FN16 so I have no idea what it looked like. With that proviso, I suggest that all turrets in early Whitleys look the same because the majority of them were Armstrong Whitworth manual turrets, which Clarke describes as "probably the most efficient hand-operated aircraft gun turret in service in the early 1930s".

Guys & Gals,

I am looking to convert the Airfix Whitley into an early version, probably a Mk.1 but am having trouble making sense of the turret options.

From various books, the Mk.I & II had an FN16 in the nose position and either an Armstrong-Whitworth AW.15 or AW.38 in the rear. The Mk.III had an FN (exact version?) up front and an AW.38 at the rear. I also know the first 12 Mk.Is had AW.13s in the nose and AW.12s at the rear (can I assume these were replaced by the FN16 and AW.15/38 later?).

My problem is all the photos I have found show turrets with a central gun with a sliding glazed "shutter" type layout that looks the same as that on the prototype Whitley and its predecessor the AW.23 transport. Surely the FN16 and the AW.12, 13, 15 & 38 can't all look the same?

Any clarification appreciated as I cannot make sense of it all.

PH

The FN 16 was a non retractable (it didn't slide back for mooring purposes) version of the FN 11 as used in the early Sunderland mkI and II flying boat nose position. it looked and operated and was mechanically the same as the Sunderland turret.

http://theflyingboatforum.forumlaunch.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1007

http://www.626-squadron.co.uk/willem27.htm

Scroll down on both links for the best images.

Selwyn

Edited May 13, 2016 by Selwyn

[Plastic Hacker]

Thanks for the replies and links Guys.

Graham - my data came from the Warpaint Whitley book and Air-Britain's Whitley File.

Looking at the pictures of the FN11 on the Sunderland, it looks like the one in the Airfix Whitley kit so can be used for a Mk.II or a later Mk.I. Incidentally, I have a reference that the base ring for the FN11 was 45" diameter (15.87mm @ 1/72) whereas the Airfix Whitley is only 15mm at that point.

Assuming the same AW manual turrets were used front and rear in the earliest Whitleys, surely the base rings should be the same diameter but the kit rear position is 12mm diameter (correct for the 34" FN4 base ring) but 15mm in the front position. I have not seen any reference to it but could the original manual turrets have been fitted to slightly narrower nose fuselage contours - with slightly wider contours for the rear turret - to both be around 13.5mm? (Approx. 38" base ring). I hope this makes sense, thinking out loud here!

PH

Edited May 16, 2016 by Plastic Hacker

[justplanecrazy]

Not convinced the FN20 was fitted in the MK.IV despite all the references to it. I have a photo of K9029 on the Baggington assembly line and it has an AW rear turret.

[Seahawk]

Very much doubt whether the FN20 turret and Whitley IV production overlapped. As for the earlier FN4 4-gun turret, NB Clarke's statement that the FN4 turret first saw service with the Whitley IV does not necessarily mean that the entire Whitley IV production run had them. This with the proviso that I am unsighted on the differences in early Whitley variants.