163 Pathfinder Squadron RAF

[GordonM]

163 Squadron RAF was re-formed at RAF Wyton in Jan 45, between then and the wars ends they flew 500 sorties. Mosquito's of the squadron visited Berlin 24 times in March 45. Mosquito Squadrons Of The RAF by Chaz Bowyer lists 16 serial number/code letter combinations, however even the RAF's own website under its Bomber Command history section lists Squadron Codes as 'unknown'! I have seen photographs of 163 aircraft (including RAF Wyton's excellent Pathfinder Collection brochure) but always frontal views with no codes visible. I find it amazing that even the RAF apparently don't know what codes were issued for the squadron. Has anyone ever come up with a possible answer? Did they even use codes or simply individual aircraft letters? Does the assembled expertise of the forum have any ideas?

[gingerbob]

NK according to Wiki, which at least gives a source. It might be that they didn't carry the squadron letters- I don't know much about the Pathfinders specifically, but there are certainly other examples, such as the recon Mustangs ("former ACC").

I'm sure others will have more gen, but if not I can rummage around my references later.

bob

p.s. But this site says CR...

Edited May 13, 2016 by gingerbob

[303sqn]

According to Combat Codes, Flintham & Thomas, 163 Squadron's code from Jan to May 1945 was Z1. Example given KB510/Z1-B.

[Seahawk]

Deleted: better information from 303sqn.

BTW CR was allocated to and worn by 162 rpt 162 Sq.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Seahawk

[leyreynolds]

Bomber Squadrons of the RAF lists squadron codes as unknown but gives the following for B.XXV's;

KB425/V

KB555/R

KB464/T

KB568/V

KB510/B

KB619/T

[Graham Boak]

Combat Codes is much more up-to-date as a source, for the matter of squadron codes. As for Wiki, NK was carried by 100 Sqn and then 118 Sqn. (Combat Codes)

[303sqn]

Combat codes has NK for 163 Squadron in AMO A1545/39 but not in the list of RAF of wartime codes.

163 Squadron reformed 10 July 1942 at Asmara in Egypt. On the 26th September 1942 a letter was sent from the Air Ministry to all
the operational Commands including Middle East, lndia and West Africa. The letter informed them that it had been decided that with the exception of Bomber and Fighter Commands, all other Commands should dispense with the use of squadron codes as a means of identification on security grounds. So it may be that 163 Squadron never had squadron codes, or if it did for a very short period, during its time in the Middle East.

[Vicarage Vee]

According to Alan Lake's Flying Units of the RAF the NK codes were allocated for April to September 1939. B.25 KB464/T and XVI RV310 are given as examples of Mosquitos.

Have you asked The RAF Museum or the people at the deHavilland Aircraft Museum is they have any photos?

[GordonM]

Thanks for the information chaps. I found it interesting/unusual that the RAF's own pretty detailed section on Bomber Command Squadrons on RAF.mod.uk lists 163 as 'unknown' - I had worked on the basis of they didn't know, why would anyone else, but thought it was worth a try! Its also odd that Bomber Squadrons Of The RAF and Mosquito Squadrons Of The RAF both list s/n and individual code letters, especially given the number of times people ask on here for codes, given the ORB's and pilot log books often list just s/n flown. That suggests someone, somewhere managed to gain access to some information about aircraft held. If only the RAF had been photographed as extensively as the USAAF!

I know certain 8 Group Mosquito Squadrons seem to have been a bit of a law unto themselves when it comes to markings (whether due to Don Bennett, individual base/squadron commanders, or just elitism I have no idea) For example 128 Squadron flew BXVI MM200 'X' without their M5 codes and also appear to have used yellow codes outlined in blue for 'A' Flight and blue outlined yellow for 'B' Flight. I suppose it's quite possible by January 1945 given the war situation 163 decided to simply identify individual aircraft? In the absence of any proof when I get round to a 163 Mosquito I'll pick a s/n and code and let anyone who argues produce a photo to prove me wrong I think!

[GordonM]

Must confess I didn't check Combat Codes, mainly because it's on the bottom shelf of my book shelves at floor level and I'm suffering with a bad back (diazepam and Oramorph also plays havoc with mental faculties!) Z1 would certainly look unusual so may well go with that.

[Graham Boak]

Although the Middle East had a relaxed approach to squadron codes. that doesn't seem to have been true for Bomber Command (and was specifically excluded in the September '42 letter), and that is where 163 Sq flew Mosquito B Mk.25s. I'd assume the Z1 codes were carried (in whatever form) without good evidence otherwise. Countering this, there are at least two colour profiles showing a 162 Sq Mk.25 with only the individual code B - though I'd like to see the photo confirming this, and until then I suspect the second is simply copying the first rather than being independent corroboration.

There's an impressive list of 15 code/serial combinations for 163 Sq in Mike Bowyer's Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF. I presume that people have already looked in Bomber Squadrons of the RAF?

PS there is also at least one profile of a 162 Sqn a/c carrying the squadron's CR codes.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Graham Boak

[brewerjerry]

Hi

A link to a photo page

http://www.hillmanweb.com/mikespack/rcaf4pic.html

cheers

jerry

Edited May 14, 2016 by brewerjerry

[GordonM]

The photo of two Mossie's labelled 'The ground crew at work' appears to show a squadron code as well as an individual letter, unfortunately it's impossible to make out! Given that there is a copy of a painting of a 692 Squadron aircraft (although the P3 codes are white not red) and the well known photo of K 'King' of 571 Squadron there doesn't seem to be any guarantee that photos other than those with the identified crews are actually 163 squadron aircraft unfortunately.

[T-21]

Was the code Z1 Zulu One or ZI Zulu India ? As 128 Sqdn at Wyton used M5 I'am inclined to go with Zulu One. Amazing that nobody bothered to record this.

[GordonM]

By the time 163 re-formed alpha numerical codes were the norm (8K/P3/6O all being 8 Group codes) so almost certainly Zulu One. I've managed to get to my copy of Combat Codes and as it states the lists were regarded as Secret which doesn't help. Also there are various lists which contradict each other - Bomber Command Info as linked above has errors (162 for example) it also lists 1409 Flight (8 Groups PAMPAS flight as 'Unknown' - probably based on the one well known photograph of D Dorothy in D Day stripes with just the D showing, however I have seen it given as AE. Frankly as I stated at the beginning the MOD's own website seems to be generally good, but I was amazed that apparently the RAF records didn't list it!

[Graham Boak]

Whilst agreeing that alphanumeric codes were being issued near the end of the war, because all the other options had been used, it is also true that the letters C and I were being used. Earlier they had been left out because of the possibilities of confusion. 163 Sqn had the code Z1(one) not ZI(eye). Elsewhere however, NI and OI were in use, but not N1 or O1, yet M1 but not MI. Readers of Combat Codes can no doubt find other examples.

What has to be remembered that earlier editions of classified documents had to be destroyed (and still do) when new ones came into use, so much information has been lost that way.

1409 Flight is quoted as AE for 1945-46. Before then it was in use by 402 Sqn RCAF so Dorothy and her contemporaries probably were just carrying the individual codes at the time of the photo. Flying Training and Support Units gives Mosquito NS734/B, but postwar Liberator KL486 AE-H, Combat Codes Mosquito ML897 AE-D

[gingerbob]

Elsewhere however, NI and OI were in use...

"OI, who are you, then?"

"We are the squadron who say 'NI'!"

And now for something completely different...

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

163 Sqn ORBs do not give answer for the squadron code, but it seems all serial/code combinations can be extracted for the war time.

 

A    26.1.45 KB505
B    26.1.45 KB510
C    26.1.45 KB474
D    26.1.45 KB453, from 1.2.45 KB488
E    26.1.45 KB511
F    1.2.45 KB526
G    26.2.45 KB624
H    2.3.45 KB538    
J    5.3.45 KB518
P    18.4.45 KB395
Q   11.4.45 KB539
R    26.2.45 KB555
S    26.2.45 KB623
T    19.2.45 KB619, from 213.45 KB464
U    2.3.45 KB502, from 24.4.45 KB411 "Canuck" (Spack)    
V    2.3.45 KB568, from 17.3.45 KB425    
W   4.3.45 KB529, from 13.3.45 KB476
X    4.2.45 KB512, from 16.3.45 KB427
Y    4.2.45 KB541
Z    2.2.45 KB403

 

It is interesting to see how B flight started from the end of the alphabets and the "middle" I, K, L, M, N and O were not used.

 

Earlier in this thread is mentioned MIKE SPACK WWII RCAF PHOTO SCRAPBOOK http://www.hillmanweb.com/mikespack/rcaf4pic.html

 

From the ORB the Pilot F/L Spack Navigator F/O Boulton fights:

16/17.3.45 KB623 S Bombing Berlin 1900 0001
18/19.3.45 KB555 R Bombing Kassel 0207 0633
21/22.3.45 KB623 S Bombing Berlin 1904 2354
22/23.3.45 KB427 X Bombing Berlin 2113 0151
24/25.3.45 KB541 Y Bombing Berlin 1857 2338
26/27.3.45 KB427 X Bombing Berlin 1852 2333
3.4.45 KB623 S Bombing Berlin 2229 0323
16.4.45 KB541 Y Bombing Berlin 2035 0120
18.4.45 (=19.4, note take-off time) KB555 R Bombing Schleissheim 0116 0556
20.4.45 KB555 R Bombing Berlin 2046 0128
23.4.45 KB427 X Bombing Travemunde 2137 0125
25.4.45 KB555 R Bombing Munich: Pasing 2028 0116
26.4.45 KB541 Y Bombing Groszenbrode 2104 0106
2/3.5.45 KB411 U Bombing "Keil" (Kiel?) 2225 0204
10.5.45 "...18 Mk. XXV. aircraft took off at 14.15 hrs. for Upwood, and landed safely. Mk.XVI's in exchange to come here, later. Crews returned by road."
27.5.45 "Following Australians and Canadians posted supernumerary to S.H.Q...Spack...Boulton..."

 

Flight times given as the last numbers.

 

The "Canuck" specially mentioned is KB411 "U". At the site there is photo of Boulton entering Mosquito. Light is needed for photographing so my first guess is that it has been taken before the May 10th transfer flight. No codes given in the ORB, unfortunately.

 

Photo: https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1628/25551/PSaundersEJ20010104.2.jpg

Is that white "D" on the Mosquito nose?

 

Cheers,
Kari

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by Kari Lumppio

[Seahawk]

On 5/14/2016 at 9:56 PM, Graham Boak said:

I presume that people have already looked in Bomber Squadrons of the RAF?

 

Yes.  "Code letters not known" (Dec 1976 edition)  Just as no squadron badge was authorised.