Earliest camouflage/markings scheme for the clear-vision canopy F4U-1 (a.k.a. -1A)

[KRK4m]

Are there any photos existing that show the clear-vision canopy F4U-1 (retrospectively called F4U-1A) in the USN two-tone "gray camouflage" or at least with pre-1943 insignia (stars with no bars)? It is commonly said the US Navy introduced the three-tone "blue camouflage" in January 1943 and the red-bordered stars with bars in June the same year. On the other hand the 758th (and final) "birdcage" Corsair left the Vought assembly line in May 1943, thus finding a Blue Gray/Light Gray F4U-1A looks impossible.

But F6F-3 Hellcats operated from CV-9 Essex and CV-10 Yorktown still in May 1943 wearing two-tone gray camo and in July (already in three-tone blue camo) still with giant stars and no bars...

So maybe?

Edited April 13, 2016 by KRK4m

[Seawinder]

On page 14 of Jim Sullivan's most recent "F4U Corsair in Action" (no. 10220), there are three photos of VF-17 "birdcage" F4U-1s aboard USS Bunker Hill in July 1943. All are painted in the "tri-color" scheme and are faded enough to suggest they have not been repainted since they left the factory. Two of them, 17-F-25 and -16 (both photos taken July 11) have national insignia without bars. 17-F-12 (presumably taken later in July), has the white bars and red surround.

On page 21, there's a photo of an F4U-1A, BuNo. 17797, #37 of VMF-216 in a faded "tri-color" scheme (the tail wheel door shown is pretty clearly white) with white bars , but no surround, added to the star/circle national insignia. The caption IDs the time as late 1943 and states, "… in a short time, the red outline will be added."

This would suggest that no -1As were factory painted in the BG/LG scheme, but at least some early units let the factory with the early, bar-less insignia.

[Bruce Archer]

Are there any photos existing that show the clear-vision canopy F4U-1 (retrospectively called F4U-1A) in the USN two-tone "gray camouflage" or at least with pre-1943 insignia (stars with no bars)? It is commonly said the US Navy introduced the three-tone "blue camouflage" in January 1943 and the red-bordered stars with bars in June the same year. On the other hand the 758th (and final) "birdcage" Corsair left the Vought assembly line in May 1943, thus finding a Blue Gray/Light Gray F4U-1A looks impossible.

But F6F-3 Hellcats operated from CV-9 Essex and CV-10 Yorktown still in May 1943 wearing two-tone gray camo and in July (already in three-tone blue camo) still with giant stars and no bars...

So maybe?

Hi!

No F4U-1A was built with the clear vision canopy. The canopy was part of later F4U-1D production.

Bruce

[Seawinder]

Hi!

No F4U-1A was built with the clear vision canopy. The canopy was part of later F4U-1D production.

Bruce

I think the OP is referring to the blown sliding canopy of the -1A as opposed to the "birdcage."

[Dana Bell]

Are there any photos existing that show the clear-vision canopy F4U-1 (retrospectively called F4U-1A) in the USN two-tone "gray camouflage" or at least with pre-1943 insignia (stars with no bars)? It is commonly said the US Navy introduced the three-tone "blue camouflage" in January 1943 and the red-bordered stars with bars in June the same year. On the other hand the 758th (and final) "birdcage" Corsair left the Vought assembly line in May 1943, thus finding a Blue Gray/Light Gray F4U-1A looks impossible.

But F6F-3 Hellcats operated from CV-9 Essex and CV-10 Yorktown still in May 1943 wearing two-tone gray camo and in July (already in three-tone blue camo) still with giant stars and no bars...

So maybe?

Hi KRK4m,

In answer to your question, there were no F4U-1As delivered in Blue Gray over Light Gray.

There were actually 949 Birdcage Corsairs built by Vought (with 195 delivered as Corsair Mk.Is). The last was BuNo 17646, and while my delivery list only goes as far as 24 July 1943, they were only delivering aircraft near # 890 (BuNo 17587) on that date. Without digging through individual record cards, the last Vought Birdcage probably passed into Navy hands in August. (The first "1As" were being pushed through around the same time.

The Navy only began talking to Vought about the four-tone color scheme in March 1943. Negotiations continued into late April, but by 5 May BuAer was criticizing Vought's method of application. Comparing the dates, the 1As would have turned up at least three months after the factory paint scheme changed. (Note that many Birdcages were recamouflaged at San Diego and Norfolk before Vought began applying the new colors.

Three Birdcage Corsairs (BuNos 02158, 02557, and 02625) were testbeds for the raised cockpit and blown canopy; I've only seen a photo of one, and that aircraft was Glossy Sea Blue overall when photographed in 1945. However, that gives you three modified aircraft that MIGHT have worn two-tone camouflage. With any luck, someone will produce a photo that will help with your project!

Cheers,

Dana

[Seawinder]

Hi KRK4m,

In answer to your question, there were no F4U-1As delivered in Blue Gray over Light Gray.

There were actually 949 Birdcage Corsairs built by Vought (with 195 delivered as Corsair Mk.Is). The last was BuNo 17646, and while my delivery list only goes as far as 24 July 1943, they were only delivering aircraft near # 890 (BuNo 17587) on that date. Without digging through individual record cards, the last Vought Birdcage probably passed into Navy hands in August. (The first "1As" were being pushed through around the same time.

The Navy only began talking to Vought about the four-tone color scheme in March 1943. Negotiations continued into late April, but by 5 May BuAer was criticizing Vought's method of application. Comparing the dates, the 1As would have turned up at least three months after the factory paint scheme changed. (Note that many Birdcages were recamouflaged at San Diego and Norfolk before Vought began applying the new colors.

Three Birdcage Corsairs (BuNos 02158, 02557, and 02625) were testbeds for the raised cockpit and blown canopy; I've only seen a photo of one, and that aircraft was Glossy Sea Blue overall when photographed in 1945. However, that gives you three modified aircraft that MIGHT have worn two-tone camouflage. With any luck, someone will produce a photo that will help with your project!

Cheers,

Dana

Hi Dana.

There's a photograph of 02158 in Jim Sullivan's new In Action book referenced above. According to his caption, the photo was taken on 30 July 1943. The plane has 4-tone camouflage and star/bar with red surround.

Cheers,

Pip

[KRK4m]

Thank you for your answers, Gentlemen.

Seawinder - as to the bar-less insignia the key factor is their location on the fuselage sides. Birdcage Corsairs (and the F4U-1A I'm looking for) had the insignia ending in line with the fin leading edge, thus the bar (when added in the summer of 1943) almost touched the tailplane leading edge. Later Corsairs, including most (I hope not all) of the F4U-1As had the star/circle moved forward, so the rear bar ended in line with the fin leading edge, leaving the area in front of the tailplane clear. I haven't seen the photo of VMF-216#37/BuNo.17797 yet, but I'll visit the Aviation Musueum library on Monday.

Bruce - I meant the raised cockpit/blown canopy as Seawinder explained already

Dana - you're absolutely right - I forgot the FAA Mk.Is... With 1943 average delivery rate of 140 a/c per month this makes things even harder, as in July (not May) the bars (and red surrounds) were already compulsory. But there's one question, that only you should be able to answer, I think.

Among several photos of Boyington's VMF-214 "Black Sheep" a/c there are two pictures of F4U-1A BuNo.17740 http://static.thisdayinaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/tdia//2013/01/1599x969xVMF-214-CO-Boyingtons-F4U-1A-Torokina-Strip-Bougainville.jpg.pagespeed.ic.pvPlGZMLHT.jpg

http://www.ratomodeling.com/finished/sheeps_nest/rooster.gif

featuring a bar-less insignia under the port wing (and regular red-surrounded "star with bars" under the starboard). It doesn't seem logical to me to paint the old-type insignia in late 1943 (the photos are variously dated, but the most common period is September-December 1943), so either this a/c was delivered in August 1943 still with insignia in six positions (with the starboard upperwing one overpainted and bars added to four others at Bougainville) or it was flown - at least for some time - with port wing "cannibalised" from a Birdcage Corsair.

Cheers

Edited April 14, 2016 by KRK4m

[Dana Bell]

Thank you for your answers, Gentlemen.

Seawinder - as to the bar-less insignia the key factor is their location on the fuselage sides. Birdcage Corsairs (and the F4U-1A I'm looking for) had the insignia ending in line with the fin leading edge, thus the bar (when added in the summer of 1943) almost touched the tailplane leading edge. Later Corsairs, including most (I hope not all) of the F4U-1As had the star/circle moved forward, so the rear bar ended in line with the fin leading edge, leaving the area in front of the tailplane clear. I haven't seen the photo of VMF-216#37/BuNo.17797 yet, but I'll visit the Aviation Musueum library on Monday.

Bruce - I meant the raised cockpit/blown canopy as Seawinder explained already

Dana - you're absolutely right - I forgot the FAA Mk.Is... With 1943 average delivery rate of 140 a/c per month this makes things even harder, as in July (not May) the bars (and red surrounds) were already compulsory. But there's one question, that only you should be able to answer, I think.

Among several photos of Boyington's VMF-214 "Black Sheep" a/c there are two pictures of F4U-1A BuNo.17740 http://static.thisdayinaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/tdia//2013/01/1599x969xVMF-214-CO-Boyingtons-F4U-1A-Torokina-Strip-Bougainville.jpg.pagespeed.ic.pvPlGZMLHT.jpg

http://www.ratomodeling.com/finished/sheeps_nest/rooster.gif

featuring a bar-less insignia under the port wing (and regular red-surrounded "star with bars" under the starboard). It doesn't seem logical to me to paint the old-type insignia in late 1943 (the photos are variously dated, but the most common period is September-December 1943), so either this a/c was delivered in August 1943 still with insignia in six positions (with the starboard upperwing one overpainted and bars added to four others at Bougainville) or it was flown - at least for some time - with port wing "cannibalised" from a Birdcage Corsair.

Cheers

Hi KRK4m,

It would take me a couple of hours to pull together a really in-depth explanation of Corsair national insignia, but the short version of the story centers around the extensive (but not exclusive) use of insignia decals by Vought, Goodyear, Brewster, and Briggs (the maker of outer wing panels for all three aircraft manufacturers). While that doesn't explain the photos you referred to, it makes possible those markings combinations. (Edit - I forgot to clarify that all outer wing panels came from Briggs camouflaged and carrying national insignia.)

Someday, I'm going to have to write a book just on -1 family Corsair color variations!

Cheers,

Dana

Edited April 14, 2016 by Dana Bell

[KRK4m]

Hi KRK4m,

It would take me a couple of hours to pull together a really in-depth explanation of Corsair national insignia, but the short version of the story centers around the extensive (but not exclusive) use of insignia decals by Vought, Goodyear, Brewster, and Briggs (the maker of outer wing panels for all three aircraft manufacturers). While that doesn't explain the photos you referred to, it makes possible those markings combinations. (Edit - I forgot to clarify that all outer wing panels came from Briggs camouflaged and carrying national insignia.)

Someday, I'm going to have to write a book just on -1 family Corsair color variations!

Cheers,

Dana

Well - it does clarify something at least. If even the mentioned BuNo.17740 carried the fuselage star-and-bar insignia in forward position already from the factory, she could have bar-less insignia on four wing positions, as Briggs either switched to new insignia later than Vought or simply they had plenty of outer wings awaiting Vought and Goodyear readying the fuselages to fit them.

Cheers

[David H]

In my experience, the deeper i delve into Corsair paint schemes, the murkier the subject becomes. However Dana did a good job establishing the baseline which established about 3 basic paint schemes using the four tone scheme, and then the variations jump off from there.

Very effective blending of the graded 4 tone scheme, plus the effects of fading due to sun exposure, plus the serious lack of colour imagery is probably the main reason why people believe some -1As carried a blue gray over light gray scheme.

-d-

[Seawinder]

Thank you for your answers, Gentlemen.

Seawinder - as to the bar-less insignia the key factor is their location on the fuselage sides. Birdcage Corsairs (and the F4U-1A I'm looking for) had the insignia ending in line with the fin leading edge, thus the bar (when added in the summer of 1943) almost touched the tailplane leading edge. Later Corsairs, including most (I hope not all) of the F4U-1As had the star/circle moved forward, so the rear bar ended in line with the fin leading edge, leaving the area in front of the tailplane clear. I haven't seen the photo of VMF-216#37/BuNo.17797 yet, but I'll visit the Aviation Musueum library on Monday.

In the aforementioned photo, 17797 has the insignia forward as you describe, with the right end of the bar pretty much in line with the fin leading edge, and the left edge of the blue circle even with the aft edge of the open sliding canopy.

[KRK4m]

In the aforementioned photo, 17797 has the insignia forward as you describe, with the right end of the bar pretty much in line with the fin leading edge, and the left edge of the blue circle even with the aft edge of the open sliding canopy.

So - as these two planes belonged perhaps to the very the same production batch - it looks like on the Pappy's 17740. There also the fuselage insignia is in forward position and the bar-less wing roundels remain the only chance for the marking oddity

BTW some 50 years ago the 17740 (with bar-less underwing insignia of course) has been shown by Richard Ward in the F4U-1 Profile Publication #47 as a Birdcage F4U-1...

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/571/pics/3_171.jpg

[KRK4m]

Not exactly the -1A, but from a modellers contest some 30 years ago I remember a very rare "birdcage" Corsair featuring combination of pre-1943 and post-1943 USN camo. It was the USMC bird (a VMF-213 or 214 machine, I don't remember today) having the proper three-tone fuselage (Sea Blue/Intermediate Blue/White) plus Sea Blue wing and tailpane topsides with remains of old Blue Gray (whole vertical tail) and even Light Gray (outer wing panels undersides).

Especially these last mentioned look odd (as 99% F4U-1s had them painted Blue Gray), but land-based USMC machines rarely used wing folding so - maybe - painting them in uppersurface colour wasn't necessary. There were red-outlined stars with bars in four standard positions plus a bar-less star under the port wing.

Have you ever met any photos of such camouflaged F4U-1? Was the situation like this possible at all?

[Fernando]

Hi, KRK4m,

Did F4U ever had Light Gray outer wing panels undersides? The way they fold, they qualify for "vertical" surfaces, and so they should have been painted accordingly.

Fernando

[Seawinder]

Hi, KRK4m,

Did F4U ever had Light Gray outer wing panels undersides? The way they fold, they qualify for "vertical" surfaces, and so they should have been painted accordingly.

Fernando

Yes, there are any number of photographs of F4U-1s (birdcage) with Blue-Gray outer under-wing panels. I can't find any photos where they're Light Gray.

[KRK4m]

(...) and even Light Gray (outer wing panels undersides).

Especially these last mentioned look odd (as 99% F4U-1s had them painted Blue Gray), but land-based USMC machines rarely used wing folding so - maybe - painting them in uppersurface colour wasn't necessary. (...) Have you ever met any photos of such camouflaged F4U-1?

Did F4U ever had Light Gray outer wing panels undersides? The way they fold, they qualify for "vertical" surfaces, and so they should have been painted accordingly.

Yes, there are any number of photographs of F4U-1s (birdcage) with Blue-Gray outer under-wing panels. I can't find any photos where they're Light Gray.

So can't I and this was the reason of my question put above. According to the rules they should be painted Blue Gray. But among the decal sets there are several (a few to be precise) a/c depicted as having Light Grey outer wing panel undersides. All of them belonged to the USMC units, where wing folding wasn't necessary. Moreover - later Goodyer-built a/c had non-folding wings from the outset. Did Briggs supply Goodyear with outer wing panel undersides painted Intermediate Blue just for the standardization or were they painted White?

These few Marine aircraft mentioned above are:

F4U-1 #8 of VMF-213

F4U-1 #10 flown by Lt. Thomas of VMF-213

F4U-1 #11 flown by Lt. Defabio of VMF-213

F4U-1 #20 flown by Lt. Garison of VMF-213

F4U-1 #13 flown by Lt. Walsh of VMF-124

F4U-1 #114 flown by Lt. Walsh of VMF-124

F4U-1 BuNo 02576 flown by Lt. Olander of VMF-214

F4U-1 #590 flown by Cpt. Conant of VMF-215 (listed as BuNo 17590, by AFAIK last F4U-1 was 17455 and 17590 should be the -1A)

F4U-1A BuNo 17735 flown by Cpt. Conant of VMF-215

The decals sets mentioned are Superscale 72-738 and Sky Models 48-042. This 1/48 Italian set consists markings for 38 (yes, thirty eight) Corsairs and along these five "two-tones" with Light Gray panels there are other eight with outer wing panel undersides in proper Blue Gray. Interesting, isnt't it?

In my opinion there aren't photos known, but the models done according to the decal makers instructions do appear at various modellers contests and they do look very convincing...

http://modelingmadness.com/scott/allies/us/usn/72f4u1c.jpg

http://modelingmadness.com/scott/allies/us/usn/72f4u1e.jpg

Cheers

Michael

Edited May 8, 2016 by KRK4m

[gingerbob]

Not probably helpful to this investigation, but I'd just like to point out that in both US and British cases, I have seen examples where the insignia on the underside of the wing remained the old style while the rest (or the visible!) had been updated. My conjecture is that, in the field (ignoring, for a moment, folding wings), painting under a wing (over your head) is much less pleasant than the top of the wing or the side of the fuselage, and was consequently put last on the priority list!

bob

[Dana Bell]

So can't I and this was the reason of my question put above. According to the rules they should be painted Blue Gray. But among the decal sets there are several (a few to be precise) a/c depicted as having Light Grey outer wing panel undersides. All of them belonged to the USMC units, where wing folding wasn't necessary. Moreover - later Goodyer-built a/c had non-folding wings from the outset. Did Briggs supply Goodyear with outer wing panel undersides painted Intermediate Blue just for the standardization or were they painted White?

These few Marine aircraft mentioned above are:

F4U-1 #8 of VMF-213

F4U-1 #10 flown by Lt. Thomas of VMF-213

F4U-1 #11 flown by Lt. Defabio of VMF-213

F4U-1 #20 flown by Lt. Garison of VMF-213

F4U-1 #13 flown by Lt. Walsh of VMF-124

F4U-1 #114 flown by Lt. Walsh of VMF-124

F4U-1 BuNo 02576 flown by Lt. Olander of VMF-214

F4U-1 #590 flown by Cpt. Conant of VMF-215 (listed as BuNo 17590, by AFAIK last F4U-1 was 17455 and 17590 should be the -1A)

F4U-1A BuNo 17735 flown by Cpt. Conant of VMF-215

The decals sets mentioned are Superscale 72-738 and Sky Models 48-042. This 1/48 Italian set consists markings for 38 (yes, thirty eight) Corsairs and along these five "two-tones" with Light Gray panels there are other eight with outer wing panel undersides in proper Blue Gray. Interesting, isnt't it?

In my opinion there aren't photos known, but the models done according to the decal makers instructions do appear at various modellers contests and they do look very convincing...

http://modelingmadness.com/scott/allies/us/usn/72f4u1c.jpg

http://modelingmadness.com/scott/allies/us/usn/72f4u1e.jpg

Cheers

Michael

Hi Michael,

I've got hundreds of Corsair shots, and none of them show the outer wing panels to be Light Gray or white. Even for the non-folding FG-1As, Briggs wouldn't have known the wings weren't meant to fold, or even which company might be the end user of the wings. Additionally, the fixed wings kept much of the folding mechanism intact, and could be back-modified if needed. I suspect some of those decal companies misinterpreted the photos they were working from...

Cheers,

Dana

[KRK4m]

(...) that in the field (ignoring, for a moment, folding wings), painting under a wing (over your head) is much less pleasant than the top of the wing or the side of the fuselage, and was consequently put last on the priority list!

Exactly And this supports my opinion that Marines rarely (if ever) folded wings of their Corsairs. Carrier-based USN F4Us had their camo/insignia updated very quickly.

Cheers

Michael

[LDSModeller]

Exactly And this supports my opinion that Marines rarely (if ever) folded wings of their Corsairs. Carrier-based USN F4Us had their camo/insignia updated very quickly.

Cheers

Michael

But It did happen as this photo attests to

Bare in mind too that when on Pacific Islands, USN/USMC or even RNZAF Corsairs were not constrained by limited Carrier space.

In the F4U-1A/D versions where needed wings, could be folded or not

Regards

Alan

Edited May 8, 2016 by LDSModeller

[KRK4m]

Forgive me for digging up a dead body buried almost 7 years ago, but I have new doubts. Well, recently I came (at Hannants) across a set of decals from the Brazilian company LPS, where as many as 4 out of 12 F4U-1As of various USMC units fighting on the Solomons in 1943/44 are presented in Light Gray over White (SIC!) camouflage.

https://www.hyperscale.com/2016/reviews/decals/lpslpm7218reviewmd_1.htm

These non-regulation freaks are all from the same batch of F4U-1s and carry Bu Nos 17722, 17735, 17740 and 17777 (from VMF-212, -214 and -215). Existing photos from Bougainville reveal their wing insignia in 4 positions, sometimes without white bars.

I know this contradicts all theories so far, many of which are from @Dana Bell. I'm guessing it's not about 1941 pattern with Sea Blue Gray over Light Gray (because not a single bubbletop F4U came out of the factory in that), but then what? "Atlantic" antisubmarine scheme or just Intermediate Blue over White (without Sea Blue upper surfaces)?

Or maybe just our Brazilian friends let their imagination run wild?

Cheers

Michael

 

[Dana Bell]

Michael,

 

Jut a quick note - those schemes were poorly researched on many levels.  Note also that the national insignia are on the wrong wings.

 

The decals may be fine, but I recommend additional research into the schemes before applying those decals...

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana