griffsrw Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) https://www.flickr.com/photos/77461910@N03/26805933536/in/album-72157665614838424/ i have put a few more photos on the file, i believe the uniflo car from goodwood a few years ago is the genuine article ( as it stands now ). Edited May 11, 2016 by griffsrw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 Thanks griffrsw, some nice shots there. Haven't been to Goodwood for a couple of years now, looks like I need to go again! Ashley, does the Works Escort in detail have any interior pics of the Alan Mann cars? I have decals for XOO 344F, 346F, and 349F. Not a lot to show at the moment, I've been working on the second kit's floor pan just simply(!) removing the internal chassis rails, transmission and exhaust tunnels, and filling the exhaust tunnel underneath; I've also removed the floor areas from the cradle. I won't hog space by showing repeat photographs. This looks increasingly as it might become a dual build, doing Roger Clark's and an Alan Mann car at the same time. The most difficult and time consuming work has been done on both except that I need to build a new pair of inner wings for one of them. And if I'm going to do that, then I might as well build a third pair of inner wings at the same time for the MKII . . . Oh Lor'! Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 There aren't any interior pics of them no. There are some nice modern exterior pics of 346F. Strangely there doesn't look to be a roll cage looking through the windows in said pics. Even the period pics I can't see one. My guess would be a simple hoop that follows the b pillar if it had one. Correction to an earlier post, there were 6 AMR cars. Which although completely built and run by AMR, we're always owned by Ford. XOO 344F ran with a Boreham built Twin cam engine in the European Touring car series but later changed to a Vegantune one. (Weslake cylinder head) And a Cosworth FVA F2 engine in the British Saloon car series. XOO 345F was written off at Goodwood during testing. XOO 346F used a Cosworth FVA but with a body mounted electric fan acting as a sort of supercharger. At Oulton Park when Graham Hill drove it it was badged as 344F. XOO 347F built and run the same as 344F but only rarely. It was sent back to Boreham, repainted and loaned to various teams before being stored and sold off in 1973. XOO 348F never raced thought may have been on display at the '68 London motor show wearing 349F's plates. Again sent back to Boreham at the end of 1969, stored and sold off in 1972. XOO 349F used the FVA engine in '68 and the Twin cam in '69 due to regulation changes. It had different rear suspension to the others, with coil overs and transverse torsion bars with radius arms. hope that helps somewhat. Ashley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonhoff Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 XOO 346F used a Cosworth FVA but with a body mounted electric fan acting as a sort of supercharger. At Oulton Park when Graham Hill drove it it was badged as 344F. IIRC I read somewhere that the electric fan was used as "Forced induction" to put the car into a different class. Can't remember why though..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Yes it was. It put it in the over 2L class. The book doesn't mention the reasons, only that when asked about it, Alan Mann said it probably didn't give any extra horse power. Without finding the technical rules of each class back then I don't think we'll find out the reason unless it's been stated elsewhere. Certainly is an interesting thing to add to a car. XOO 348F was supposed to be the second 'supercharged' car but it was never implemented. Having read about all the reg swapping that went on at Boreham and obviously the same was used at AMR too. It wouldn't surprise me that 348F, the one with no race history or defined engine type, wasn't used as a stand in if one of the main cars needed a repair or something like that. That's my personal opinion, not one of Graham Robson the author. He only makes mention of it standing in for 349F as noted previous. But it makes you wonder why build a car and not race it at all? Hmmm. Lol. Ashley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 XOO 349F used the FVA engine in '68 and the Twin cam in '69 due to regulation changes. It had different rear suspension to the others, with coil overs and transverse torsion bars with radius arms. That's interesting - that's probably the in period usage that the modern historic rally guys use as proof to run coil overs! As to the electric fan as forced induction, that was probably Alan Mann's attempt to bend the rules by claiming that's what a supercharger actually was! Forced induction always has an 'equivalency factor' that is multiplied by the standard engine size & will invariably put the car into a bigger engine class. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Ever since I learnt how a supercharger and turbo charger worked and the advantages and disadvantages of each, I've always thought "why not just use an electric fan?" Obviously if you don't encase it to make a sealed system, as it sounds like the AMR cars didn't, you wouldn't get much benefit. But if done properly why couldn't it be as effect as a super or turbo charger? They'd be no hp loss or engine load like a supercharger and no lag like a Turbo. There must be some complicated reason why it's not used. It sounds so simple. Maybe I should send Dyson a letter haha. Ashley Edited May 11, 2016 by MetroRacing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 I used electric fans on most of my rally cars & never noticed any performance benefit (other than stopping them overheating in traffic!) And I've never heard of the equivalency factor being invoked on a car with a car with one fitted. So it must be, as you say, that it's only going to be effective when it's encased in a sealed system. I'm still struggling though to see how one can work as well as a supercharger Ashley? But we're wandering OT here in Nick's thread. I'm going to do some reading up on it later! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Yes at the risk of going too far off topic. But a turbo and a supercharger are just fans that blow air into the intake system. It's the way they are spun that is different. Supercharger via a belt and a turbo by another fan in the exhaust. If those drive systems were replaced by an electric motor it would be just as efficient but with no lag or load on the engine. Anyway I'm off to solder the IC on my 1:1 model. Itching for more progress on the Escort. Or maybe that's the sunburn from the other day haha. Ashley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptcruiser Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Yes it was. It put it in the over 2L class. The book doesn't mention the reasons, only that when asked about it, Alan Mann said it probably didn't give any extra horse power. Without finding the technical rules of each class back then I don't think we'll find out the reason unless it's been stated elsewhere. Certainly is an interesting thing to add to a car. XOO 348F was supposed to be the second 'supercharged' car but it was never implemented. In Alan Mann's Book (just finished reading it) he says exactly that. Added to imply an induction system for the top class, a Smiths heater fan was added to the induction system, mounted over the intake trumpets of the injection system. It did absolutely nothing except move the car to the higher class to compete with the Falcons etc. They did however try both supercharger and turbo charger on the bench but there was not time pre season to develop either properly. The book also catalogues each Mann car's race history. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 Thanks for joining in, Rich. Are there any interior pics of Mann's Escorts? There are loads of external shots on the web, and there seems to be a rebuild of one in Bermuda possibly, I didn't bookmark that unfortunately, but I'll find it again. I'm not sure that any carried a roll cage, or even hoop, they don't seem to appear in any photographs. I'm ignorant on the Saloon Racing class rules so don't know if seats were obligatory - I hope not! Or carpets. Or interior trim . . . Don't worry about going OT - it's all an education. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 The BSCC at the time used Group 5 rules if that's of any use. I too don't know anything further than that lol. Ashley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptcruiser Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 #Nick: Thanks. Only 3 photos of Escorts, none internal. None clearly showing whether there was a roll cage of any description. Nothing in the text either iirc. They were completed to Group 5 Spec so I would suggest try and find what that encompassed and you will know for sure. p193 349F '68 Crystal Palace. (2nd overall, 1st in class) p195 344F '68 Old Nurburgring (dnf) p198 349F '68 Brands Hatch (4th overall, 1st in class) Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptcruiser Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) et voila: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/whistj?open p17 of Appendix J Rich Edited May 11, 2016 by ptcruiser 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Thank you Rich. I've been looking for an 80's FIA blue book for ages so I can see the specific appendix J regulations for Group B, and now I have it HAZZAH. Also back on topic, don't forget that the European Touring Car Championship used Group 2 rules. Hence the engine swaps when the cars ran abroad. But seeing as group 5 required the base car to be Homologated and the Escort being so and in Group 2. Maybe there were some things that although allowed for Group 5, wouldn't be for Group 2 and so wouldn't have been used. Maybe. Ashley Edited May 11, 2016 by MetroRacing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 Thanks, Rich, I'll have a look at those. Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griffsrw Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 all the photographic evidence would appear to show that the mann escorts were not fitted with a cage in period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 I concur sir. Whilst doing some glueing and filling and waiting for these to cure, I've done a bit more modification. The first pic shows before (left half) and after some surgery on the radiator grille. You can see what I meant by the tunnel effect (I think I mentioned in my first post). The right half shows the tunnel removed as well as the area where the etched grill will sit. And here's a comparison of the steering wheel before and after some work. There are recesses on the front face of the spokes that I've just drilled and then thinned down. No doubt some brass aftermarket will arrive shortly! Inset is the dash that I've done because the kit's is just a decal sitting on a piece of etch - no recesses, no switch positions, just blank. But then I've got decal that should be behind and decal that should be on the front - 'sgonna be fun! Back to the sanding now . . . Nick 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 (edited) Wow the difference just a little work makes is amazing. This stuff should be in a magazine article lol. You know the problem with making the grill see through is don't you. You now need an engine to go behind it Ashley Edited May 13, 2016 by MetroRacing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 You flatter me Ashley!! I think I'll be making the suggestion of a radiator using a bit of etch mesh over some plastic card but to the correct width, and then another piece painted black a couple of mil' - I'll have to do that because I'll be opening up the bodywork behind the grill. There are two 'slots' behind the grill - these slots are different widths that gives a very distinctive bar between the two slots. So I don't need an engine - nah nah nah nah-nah!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Or there's the scale production engine transkit hehe Ashley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted May 27, 2016 Author Share Posted May 27, 2016 Little bit of an update . . . I've been continuing with the floorpans. The top and bottom sections have been joined and then began dealing with the joins between. The joints around the edges need to be square, but because the floorpan is a single pressing, there needs to be a radius where the floor meets the transmission tunnel. I've extended the transmission tunnel fore and aft as well as adding the front seat support 'crossmembers'. The process is shown during and after: The 'pan on the right is the Roger Clark build, the Alan Mann car to the left. The Roger Clark car will be 'carpeted'. I've removed the bulkheads behind the rear seats (I'm accruing quite a lot of redundant plastic!) because I felt that the angle was a too shallow and also intruded into the cockpit too far. The firewall has been dry fitted on the right - this has been let into the parcel shelf just to increase the interior space still further. With the additional space created, I think I can add the top of the rear turrets now in the correct position. The fuel filler pipe looks to be too far forward on the parcel shelf but that's academic (for me) because I'll need to build a shroud for it anyway. The two holes in the middle of the firewall are where the vinyl tool bags locate. In reality, they are stitched to a sheet that is fastened and hung from the studs you can just about see along the top. As you can see, the firewall falls short of the floorpan - more evidence of the thickness of the finished floor if built out of the box - I'll need to rebuild them. At least (I hope), that's the worst over. I'm not sure I can go through this again for the MKII's floorpan . . . Nick 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Excellent work. You're showing a real dedication with these. I'm taking notes for my builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 What Smiffy said! Neat work Nick! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetroRacing Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Looking good. Ashley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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