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1/48 - Curtiss-Wright P-40C Hawk 81-A2 / Tomahawk Mk.IIB by Bronco Models - released - new boxing AVG aces


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Sharkmouth

Step (w) Disconnect the airspeed lines at the upper surfaces of the wing within the cockpit

Step (v) specifically mentioned the area you are talking about: Disconnect the two hydraulic brake lines at cockpit floor aft of firewall

My current interpretation is that there is a cut-out in the cockpit floor into which a portion of upper wing surfaces (those fuel gages etc) coming like into a slot, thereby making the whole joint more sturdy. The sockets for the seat should be under the floor

Troy Smith

The picture I've posted in my first message shows Tomahawk pilot also sitting with his shoulders above the cockpit sill

Edited by Óttar
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Sharkmouth

Step (w) Disconnect the airspeed lines at the upper surfaces of the wing within the cockpit

Step (v) specifically mentioned the area you are talking about: Disconnect the two hydraulic brake lines at cockpit floor aft of firewall

My current interpretation is that there is a cut-out in the cockpit floor into which a portion of upper wing surfaces (those fuel gages etc) coming like into a slot, thereby making the whole joint more sturdy. The sockets for the seat should be under the floor

Troy Smith

The picture I've posted in my first message shows Tomahawk pilot also sitting with his shoulders above the cockpit sill

Well Óttar, unlike Tom Cleaver (who sat in a P-40B/C) my experience is limited to the later P-40 series (an E, a K, M, and N) and none had a cockpit floor above the upper wing surface. This is why the seat rail sockets are on the upper wing surface. The seat mounts to this rail and can be adjusted up and down as you might have seen in the paragraph at left whereby it states:

"If cables seem too short, adjust rudder pedals to full aft position and seat to down position."

This explains your pilot with the shoulders above the cockpit sill.

P40E1MaintenanceFig17.jpg

Note that Troy Smith quoted Tom Cleaver's experience with the Tomahawk. What he explained was that the seat rails on the Tomahawk are vertical (the seat on aircraft are adjustable) so there is room to sit 'normally' while later versions of the P-40 have a cockpit which is ten inches shallower causing the pilots legs to be out in front, nearly horizontal. I've sent an e-mail to Tom Cleaver to ask for clarification.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth
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Sharkmouth

Step (w) Disconnect the airspeed lines at the upper surfaces of the wing within the cockpit

Step (v) specifically mentioned the area you are talking about: Disconnect the two hydraulic brake lines at cockpit floor aft of firewall

My current interpretation is that there is a cut-out in the cockpit floor into which a portion of upper wing surfaces (those fuel gages etc) coming like into a slot, thereby making the whole joint more sturdy. The sockets for the seat should be under the floor

Troy Smith

The picture I've posted in my first message shows Tomahawk pilot also sitting with his shoulders above the cockpit sill

Ottar,

What is the relevance of your comment about the pilot's shoulders being above the cockpit sill? The seat is on rails and is raised and lowered depending on the pilot's height. As shown in the many photos and diagrams, the seat support rails are mounted directly onto the wing upper surface which acts as the cockpit floor.

These images have been posted before in this thread but you clearly are not seeing what people are describing. Note the stick standing perpendicular to the wing upper surface in this photo:

P-40_Masks_1.jpg

That is the same item visible to at centre-right in this photo...and it's clearly mounted to the wing upper surface.

_____8269251_orig.jpg

In the above picture, one can even detect the camber of the wing relative to the fuselage stringers.

You can cite changes in wording within a manual but if your hypothesis is correct, surely it would show in at least on of the photos that have been provided in this thread? Bottom line is that the extra floor in the Trumpy kit is entirely inaccurate, indeed one could argue they made the kit far more complex than it needed to be because of that error.

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On 5/10/2016 at 3:31 PM, sharkmouth said:

Well Óttar, unlike Tom Cleaver (who sat in a P-40B/C) my experience is limited to the later P-40 series (an E, a K, M, and N) and none had a cockpit floor above the upper wing surface.

Note that Troy Smith quoted Tom Cleaver's experience with the Tomahawk. What he explained was that the seat rails on the Tomahawk are vertical (the seat on aircraft are adjustable) so there is room to sit 'normally' while later versions of the P-40 have a cockpit which is ten inches shallower causing the pilots legs to be out in front, nearly horizontal. I've sent an e-mail to Tom Cleaver to ask for clarification.

Regards,

I have received a reply from Tom:

"If you look at a Tomahawk fuselage in profile and a Kittyhawk fuselage in profile, the Tomahawk fuselage is deeper (or higher) while the top of the Kittyhawk fuselage is cut down in comparison. This is why the later cockpit is more shallow. In both cases the wing is the "floor".

 
Tom"
On 5/10/2016 at 4:46 PM, mhaselden said:

Bottom line is that the extra floor in the Trumpy kit is entirely inaccurate, indeed one could argue they made the kit far more complex than it needed to be because of that er

Well, this is the Bronco thread which does share the same error as the Trumpeter.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth
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Sharkmouth

The upper wing surface is right before the eyes of the pilot and probably this leads to some confusion. Manual makes a distinction between it and the cockpit floor

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After all the evidence posted, if you still dont believe that the top of the wing is in effect the floor of the cockpit, I.E where you put your feet, it is possibly best we all just agree to disagree.

As short of taking you to the fighter collection and getting them to deconstruct the example there it seems like nothing will convince you....

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The upper wing surface is right before the eyes of the pilot and probably this leads to some confusion. Manual makes a distinction between it and the cockpit floor

Right before the eyes of the pilot? Before the pilot, looking where? Up, down, left, right, or behind? Looking up is the sky and the canopy with the central bar most models omit. Looking behind is the armor, headrest, and scalloped sides to improve vision of the sky. With peripheral vision, one can barely make out the landing gear horn and fuel port. Looking forward, the pilot sees the sky, the gun sights (one of which is the ring and bead), instrument panel, & gun butts. Looking left is the sky, port wing, throttle, belly tank release, and so on. Looking right is the sky, starboard wing, radio, map case, hydraulic hand pump knob, and other items. Looking down ahead are the rudder pedals, control stick, starter pedal, main fuel tank gage to the left of the central seam, reserve tank gage to the right of the central seam, shut off valves, and the emergency hydraulic pump. What is the central seam? The seam created when both wings are attached together (meaning it is the upper wing surface that one sees). All these items described are in the cockpit. The upper wing surface the pilot sees and has access when flying is his/her cockpit floor.

Tom Cleaver, who actually was in the same model of P-40 as the kit purports to be, stated clearly that "In both cases the wing is the "floor"." In the end, that means that there is no separate floor in the cockpit.

Anyway, to return to the model being released, it seems that Airfix will be the only one correct. Bronco can, at the last minute, make corrections. I would love to see what they do.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth
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Sharkmouth

Right before the eyes of the pilot? Before the pilot, looking where?

I think it's pretty clear from the context of the discussion

To return to the model - it's fine, but the AVG markings are not inspiring for me. Airfix - can't say anything about it as I've seen only CAD's

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I think it's pretty clear from the context of the discussion

Actually, it isn't clear. It seems that you are incredulous although you read statements by two claiming to have first hand experience with the aircraft that said aircraft does not have a separate cockpit floor and all references to a cockpit floor is synonymous to the upper wing surface within the cockpit area. I don't have photographs taken during my experiences restoring aircraft (keeping my A & P licenses up to date) and I didn't ask Tom Cleaver for photos either.

Tom Cleaver laid it to rest when he mentioned that, until the P-40D, the cock[pit was ten inches deeper than the rest of the production variants. This may not be easy for some to imagine so I will try to illustrate with photos.

Here is a P-40C. Take a look at the horizontal line above the crest on the insignia on the fuselage side. Follow it along the left and you will see the hinge line at the top of the fuselage hatch and continue following it left to see it line up with the bottom of the canopy rail:

maxresdefault.jpg

Now we have a P-40N. Follow along the top edge of the hatch and see where the cockpit sill is now. Ten inches lower.

P-40Nhayward48N1011N.jpg

P-40E here. Same exercise, same result.

p-40e_warhawk_13.jpg

Regards,

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Óttar, I just realized that all your posts on Britmodeller (< Thanks, JasonC) are in this thread. So, first of all, welcome to the Britmodeller forums! Second, I proved my point even if you don't believe it so I won't harp on it. You should be happy to know that there are plenty of aftermarket decals for this aircraft and, since shark mouth schemes do not interest you (or do they?) you don't need to worry about the fit since they would have been designed for the kits available at the time of first printing.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth
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Sharkmouth

I believe the manual, which makes difference between cockpit floor and top surface of the wing. And this kind of literature uses very precise and unambiguous wording

As for markings - I'm not interested in Chinese Air Force. The livery of 112 Sqn would suit it much better

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Ottar,

I'm afraid you are inferring that the manual differentiates between the wing upper surface and the cockpit floor because it uses different language but that's a false dichotomy - the cockpit floor is the upper surface of the wing, ergo the 2 terms can be interchangeable in the context of the P-40. Please bear in mind that the pilot using these notes would have access to the actual aircraft and it would be readily apparent that the cockpit floor was the wing upper surface.

Kind regards,
Mark

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Sharkmouth

I believe the manual, which makes difference between cockpit floor and top surface of the wing. And this kind of literature uses very precise and unambiguous wording

As for markings - I'm not interested in Chinese Air Force. The livery of 112 Sqn would suit it much better

As someone who helped restore some warbirds, I can state that I clearly understood what was in the manual and it corresponded with what I saw on the aircraft. As a 'Yank' the wording is quite clear to me. The manual is used to help those involved in flying and maintaining the aircraft as built. So, manuals are used in rebuilding the aircraft with concessions made for safety and (if the owner wishes it) comfort. In the erection and maintenance manuals, I find absolutely no instance where a separate cockpit floor is mentioned. Not during assembly or disassembly, not during maintenance to get behind what this floor would cover, not in the parts catalog, nor in the combat repair manuals. I still have copies of most of them. Again, I am limited to later models of the P-40 but for me, there is no separate floor.

You'll have to wait for another release or aftermarket decals for the 112 Sqn markings as their shark mouth designs probably won't fit any of the new releases.

Regards,

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I just dunno.

How can anyone rate his own (deliberate mis-) interpretation higher than several clear photos that practically prove everything ?

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A discussion with one of my friends brought up this question... if this photograph of the Curtiss H81A-2 cockpit shows the upper wing fuselage under the seat and forward from the photographer's perspective,
_____8269251_orig.jpg

what purpose would a cockpit floor serve? Note that the photograph was taken without the seat in place.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth
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Here is a cockpit image of P-40D (KittyHawk HS@B found in the desert. Note the accoutrements at each side of the pilot's seat? What purpose would a cockpit floor serve?

HS-B19.jpg

Click image to visit site from which this photo was borrowed.

Regards,

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Give it up Saul. It's clear he's not able to admit he's wrong.

The photo of the wings being painted clearly shows the floor of the cockpit being part of the wing. In fact it looks like it sits just below the skin of the wings. On that image you can clearly see the controls and fittings attached on the wings, on the shot of the cockpit floor you can see the same controls and fittings.

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Óttar, I just realized that all your posts on ARC are in this thread. So, first of all, welcome to the ARC!

Britmodeller. ;)

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Sharkmouth

What purpose would a cockpit floor serve?

It serves the purpose of strengthening the fuselage structure

I think we are going in circles. All the same pictures were posted by various contributors in this thread more than once. The area they try to point out clearly defined in manual, yet it is not the same as cockpit floor, according to the same source. The picture was posted (not even by me) with the factory worker inside the cockpit without the wing being attached.

I have no intention to continue another round of repeating the same arguments by both sides until I'll reach the status of Very Obsessed Member. So I think we could stop for now.

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It serves the purpose of strengthening the fuselage structure.

It isn't needed in this aircraft. Yes, I am familiar with it.

The picture was posted (not even by me) with the factory worker inside the cockpit without the wing being attached.

The person who posted the photograph agrees that the workers feet are on the stringers, just like mine were, and can be seen by the position of his legs in the cockpit.

I have no intention to continue another round of repeating the same arguments by both sides until I'll reach the status of Very Obsessed Member. So I think we could stop for now.

Fair enough... it was clear to many. I guess Airfix's CAD must be wrong as I don't see a separate cockpit floor there.

Regards,

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Sharkmouth

It serves the purpose of strengthening the fuselage structure

I think we are going in circles. All the same pictures were posted by various contributors in this thread more than once. The area they try to point out clearly defined in manual, yet it is not the same as cockpit floor, according to the same source. The picture was posted (not even by me) with the factory worker inside the cockpit without the wing being attached.

I have no intention to continue another round of repeating the same arguments by both sides until I'll reach the status of Very Obsessed Member. So I think we could stop for now.

Personally I think that the factory worker is sitting on the cockpit sill, and there could be something temporary fitted inside the cockpit to make it easier to work before the wing was fitted - it just doesn't prove a thing without seeing in that cockpit, unlike the pictures of the wing that show the cockpit fittings attached.

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Personally I think that the factory worker is sitting on the cockpit sill, and there could be something temporary fitted inside the cockpit to make it easier to work before the wing was fitted

A wooden plank could be placed between the stringers but his legs are splayed out as though he climbed in from underneath. See the legs of the person in the fuel tank area (behind the scallops)? Nice detail is "Dutch" on the toolbox.

Regards,

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