HP42 Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Hi all, Just a few technical questions really. I bought the Valom Bristol Bombay in desert scheme like this... https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/VAL72097 I'm having a bit of a 1930s silver wings phase in my building, so I'd like to make this one... https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/VAL72099 The question is, aside decals which are easily overcome here, is there any difference between the kits? Did the silver one have guns fitted? Anything else I need to know about? Am I correct in thinking the skin was stressed metal and the control surfaces were fabric? I'm also part way through building a Hawker Demon. I could do with a reference for the rear gunner's seat. Am I correct in thinking he could face either way? In which case was he on a swivelling seat or similar? (describe it if no piccys present?) Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 The rear seat in the Hawker two seaters fitted with a gun ring were all the same. It was for use in transit and not in combat. It took the form of a simple tubular frame which folded down from under the pilots raised seat. The frame has been erroneously called the frame for the radio in one book. Here are two photos from my son Simon's collection complete with desert sand and rat nibbled seat, Please do not re-post these on the internet. John 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Bombay L5808 was the first production a/c (so standard fit) and did not see Sqn service. It crashed in 1939 whilst at Martlesham (dived into ground) and probably only occasionally carried it's armament. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HP42 Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) John, thank you so much for the info, that really helps. It must have been somewhat disconcerting to have undone one's straps in the Demon and then get thrown about in a dogfight. I can't think how the airman would have been able to move about unless removing his harness. I've been looking on the net and there's a picture of L5809 which is also silver. I wonder if this saw squadron service? Edit: (Bombay L5809 was with 271 Sqn. Answered my own question!) http://www.rafweb.org/Members%20Pages/Aircraft%20Serials/Operational%20Units.htm Edited March 29, 2016 by HP42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 The gunner would still have his parachute harness on and when the seat was pushed back he would secure himself to a 'monkey chain' which clips to his harness through his legs and to a ring-bolt on the floor around which he would rotate as he spun the gun ring. The gunner would stand up and flip the seat back and the over centre spring, visible in the photos would lock it into place. I surmise that the Observer-gunner wore a chest type chute which I think was stowed on the shelf where the bungeys are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 The gunner would still have his parachute harness on and when the seat was pushed back he would secure himself to a 'monkey chain' which clips to his harness through his legs and to a ring-bolt on the floor around which he would rotate as he spun the gun ring. The gunner would stand up and flip the seat back and the over centre spring, visible in the photos would lock it into place. I surmise that the Observer-gunner wore a chest type chute which I think was stowed on the shelf where the bungeys are. Sorry to butt in on another person's thread but I read this just now and was wondering if the TAG in the Fairey Swordfish had a similar 'monkey chain' to that you mention here. I'm currently building a Stringbag with the intention of having the TAG standing at his Vickers and wanted to get such details right. Regards all, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 The 'Monkey chain' if fitted must go the the centre of the gunners floor when fitted with a fully rotating gun ring such as the Scarff or Hawker Hi-speed mount so the the gunner can rotate around the centre and not get tangled. The Fairey Gun mounting fitted to the Naval III.F and Swordfish does not rotate as it is the raised, over centre, swiveling gun type. However I have found a photo of the III.F fitted with a 'Monkey chain' which again goes to the floor and I would think the same arrangement was used on the Swordfish. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Splendid John, I'm indebted to you. I had come across (somewhere, don't ask me where, I've been through so much Stringbag material lately...) a reference to the TAG being tethered in this way as 'gavotting', but you've now visually confirmed the likely detail I need to consider. I'll go back and look more closely at any cockpit shots I have. Thanks again, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 (edited) Tony, yes the TAG (& Observer, for that matter) in a Stringbag had a similar arrangement. Detailed rear cockpit shots are hard to find, but this might help you: http://www.martinsammodels.com/webpage/pages/Real%20Aviation/Walkarounds/Swordfish/Swordfish.htm If you go to the fifth row down and the fifth picture in from the left, there's a really clear picture looking down at the floor of the TAG's cockpit. The circle in the middle of the floor is the attachment point for the "monkey chain". Edit: actually, that site has some great pictures, albeit of an incomplete aircraft Edited April 14, 2016 by Ex-FAAWAFU 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Tony, yes the TAG (& Observer, for that matter) in a Stringbag had a similar arrangement. Detailed rear cockpit shots are hard to find, but this might help you: http://www.martinsammodels.com/webpage/pages/Real%20Aviation/Walkarounds/Swordfish/Swordfish.htm Spot on Sir. Just the detail I needed. Just have to work out where on my TAG to attach the tether. I'm guessing in term of freedom of movement some kind of belt attachment at the front... That's a great link, lots of viewing angles I haven't seen before. Many thanks, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Sorry, but I can't help you on where / how it was attached at the human end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 "I stow my parachute and fix the “monkey chain”. This is a two feet length of flexible steel cable, fastened to the bottom of the cockpit, which clips on to the ring at the base of my harness. It is to prevent me falling out during aerial manoeuvres!" From Tony French:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/67/a1951067.shtml My late father described the same arrangement in Wapitis and the alarming effect of turbulence over the NW Frontier of India on the chap in the back. It was necessary to hold on tight to the gun ring to avoid a yo-yo effect as the aircraft dipped and rose. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 ExFAAWAFU: No problem Nick. Thanks for that detail on that monkey chain. Now to figure out how to mock up 1/72 chains....:0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Look out for model railway stuff, there are loads of chains available in various accessory ranges in different gauges. Well worth having a few of different sizes, they come in handy for all sorts of dioramas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 As in Nick's post, the Monkey chain was in fact cable. Pet monkeys were traditionally kept on a light chain or leash and this was the nickname used for the Aircrew tether. Your cable could be represented by fine grey sewing thread, waxed to lay the hairs to make it smooth. There was a carbine clip at both ends and the lower end had a small swivel. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 John-thanks for that additional detail. Cable suits me better anyway as I'm using a fine braided wire from an old VGA cable (Amazing how many useful different kinds of material one of them produces when you cut them open). It was bothering me as it looks more like cable than chain, smeared with some dark grey to tone it down. This puts a better complexion on things. When the TAG is in place this cable can be easily bent to meet the floor at the correct point in his position. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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