Frank Carey's aircraft

[Meatbox8]

I've always thought it odd that Frank Carey, as one of the RAF's greatest fighter leaders and tacticians, is not nearly as well known as Johnson, Malan, Beurling, Caldwel et al. I'm interested in building something that he flew but despite quit extensive research the only aircraft that I have ever seen pictorial evidence of is the Spit VIII he flew when in charge of the AFTU in India. What I really want is an aircraft that he flew operationally at some point in his wartime career.

Could someone point me in the right direction?

Cheers in advance...

[Biggles87]

Hi, I think there is a picture in one of my books of Frank Carey standing next to a P40. It may be my memory playing tricks, but I'll have a look tomorrow and let you know if I find anything.

Cheers

John

[tonyot]

I really want to make a model of his Spit which had the red flash on the side but cannot decide whether it was a full lifghting flash shape running to the tail or whether it just ran onto the wing as seen in some colour artwork. The photo that I`ve seen is inconclusive and to me it would seem obvious to run it along the rear fuselage too,....has anybody got any ideas?

Re his combat aircraft,....he scored most of his kills in Hurrcane`s overseas,....hence his lack of `fame' and I`ve seen this side view before if it helps;

He also had a silver Tempest Mk.II with his personal codes on it in Germany post war,

Cheers

Tony

[malpaso]

That photo of the red stripe looks weird. The stripe seems pixelated differently from the rest of the picture. It feels to have a different perspective too. Could it be a possible photoshop or even a period retouched picture? It just doesn't seem to sit convincingly on the fuselage side.

But it does look like a lovely scheme in some of the colour profiles.

Cheers

Will

[Meatbox8]

Hi, I think there is a picture in one of my books of Frank Carey standing next to a P40. It may be my memory playing tricks, but I'll have a look tomorrow and let you know if I find anything.

Cheers

John

That's interesting. As far as I know he never flew P40s but I could be wrong. I'd be interested in seeing it if you come across it.

[Meatbox8]

I really want to make a model of his Spit which had the red flash on the side but cannot decide whether it was a full lifghting flash shape running to the tail or whether it just ran onto the wing as seen in some colour artwork. The photo that I`ve seen is inconclusive and to me it would seem obvious to run it along the rear fuselage too,....has anybody got any ideas?

Re his combat aircraft,....he scored most of his kills in Hurrcane`s overseas,....hence his lack of `fame' and I`ve seen this side view before if it helps;

He also had a silver Tempest Mk.II with his personal codes on it in Germany post war,

Cheers

Tony

Thanks for going to the trouble of posting these. That's the MkVIII I was thinking of. The artwork I have seen (Osprey's Spitfire Aces of Burma and Pacific) has the red flash ending on the wing root. AZ models have done a release with that scheme though (when I finally get round to it) the SEAC MkVIII I'll be building will be a 152 sqn aircraft with that smart leaping panther. Thanks for the Hurricane illustrations. |I don't normally go for Wing Commander aircraft as I like to represent squadrons but I might make an exception with Carey's aircraft. Presumably that's a MkIIb ? (The illustrations that is, the photo looks like a IIC).

Edited March 22, 2016 by Meatbox8

[bobmig]

It's not a great photo, but it does show that the red lightning bolt carried back to the tail. We have this aircraft on out 1/48 decal sheet, "Spitfires over India". www.iliad-design.com

[Procopius]

Presumably that's a MkIIb ? (The illustrations that is, the photo looks like a IIC).

Per Bloody Shambles Volume III p.53-55, Carey flew a IIc for at least a time. F/Sgt Frank Wilding took FR-C up during a scramble on 23 January 1943, and mentions the cannon several times. Per the Norman Franks biography of him, he initially flew Hurricane BM914 in Burma on 26 January 1942. Carey also flew BE171 (29/1/42), BM842 (24/2/42), and BE743 (25/2/42). Other serials he's noted as flying in Burma are BM914 and BG829, as well as BG975. By August of 1942, his regular Hurricane was BN468, the IIc coded FR-C. Frustratingly, there are no photos of any of these aircraft in the biography.

[Biggles87]

Sorry, my memory was playing tricks. The photo posted above of FC with a tropical Hurricane was the one I was thinking of.

John

[Meatbox8]

Per Bloody Shambles Volume III p.53-55, Carey flew a IIc for at least a time. F/Sgt Frank Wilding took FR-C up during a scramble on 23 January 1943, and mentions the cannon several times. Per the Norman Franks biography of him, he initially flew Hurricane BM914 in Burma on 26 January 1942. Carey also flew BE171 (29/1/42), BM842 (24/2/42), and BE743 (25/2/42). Other serials he's noted as flying in Burma are BM914 and BG829, as well as BG975. By August of 1942, his regular Hurricane was BN468, the IIc coded FR-C. Frustratingly, there are no photos of any of these aircraft in the biography.

Thanks for the info. I'll try searching for those serials. You never know what might turn up. I seem to remember that many IICs in that theatre had one cannon from each wing deleted to improve performance, just to confuse things even more.

[tonyot]

I only included the pic of Carey to show the man himself,....I didn`t mean to imply that it was the same aircraft. I would say that the painting and side view are correct in depicting a Mk.IIb as these were more common earlier on in the fighting over Burma and India but Mk.IIc`s began arriving on the scene in mid 42 and began to become more widespread afterwards,.....which is probably when the photo was taken. You are correct in saying that some Hurri IIc`s had a cannon deleted from each wing,....it was usually the outer one but many retained all four guns too.

It's not a great photo, but it does show that the red lightning bolt carried back to the tail. We have this aircraft on out 1/48 decal sheet, "Spitfires over India". www.iliad-design.com

Thanks for posting the proof that I needed,.....great! I had always thought that it seemed logical to have a `lightning flash', as seen on his Spitfire and Thunderbolt in Egypt, but I just needed `that' photo! I have your 1/48th sheet already and bought it for this aircraft and the 607 Sqn one,......I just want to build Carey`s Spit it in 1/72nd scale too. Never happy eh?

Thanks again,..cheers,

Tony

PS,....Here is a lovely side view drawing of Carey`s post war Tempest Mk.II by Chris Banyai-Riepl.

Edited March 23, 2016 by tonyot

[Meatbox8]

I've managed to find out that he may have flown a Hurricane coded FT-Y on the day he shot down four Ju87s during the BofB while flying with 43 sqn from Tangmere. I found a colour profile of a Hurricane with those codes, with the serial P3386. If anyone can confirm this ? This would fit the bill for me if correct as a. I've just built a 135 sqn Hurricane b. I have family connections near Tangmere and c. I don't have a BofB Hurricane in my collection. All I need to do now is find a metal winged Hurricane I in 1/72!

[Graham Boak]

Sorry for the digression: you mention 607 Sq. The Spitfires at Imphal did not carry the white bands, the action being before these were adopted. I suspect that it shows a later aircraft, in Burma. in which case it may well be a fighter-bomber with a centre-line rack. Excellent choice of subject, anyway.

[Nick Millman]

607 were on the satellite airfields around Imphal until 16 January 1945 when they moved to satellite fields in the Mandalay area of central Burma (Tabingaung and Dwelha) and in April to Meiktila (Dwelha, Kwetnge and Thedaw) which had loads of ex-Japanese satellite fields. At the end of April they moved to Kalaywa in the Prome area of south-central Burma and in May back to Thedaw for a week before going on to Mingaladon when Rangoon fell.

The white bands were ordered on 27 January 1945 to be worn with effect from 1 February 1945 but I don't know where or when 607 applied them.

Nick

[Meatbox8]

Actually that Tempest is pretty tempting. It looks great in silver and there's nothing in the markings that I don't have in the decal spares. Question is though, was it painted silver or natural metal?

[Procopius]

I seem to remember that many IICs in that theatre had one cannon from each wing deleted to improve performance, just to confuse things even more.

F/Sgt Wilding specifically mentions both 20mm cannon on one wing jamming, causing the aircraft to heave to one side when he fired, so that doesn't seem to be the case for Carey's Hurricane.

[Meatbox8]

F/Sgt Wilding specifically mentions both 20mm cannon on one wing jamming, causing the aircraft to heave to one side when he fired, so that doesn't seem to be the case for Carey's Hurricane.

Funnily enough I've never actually seen a photo of a CBI Hurricane with any canons deleted, only ones based in North Africa.

[Meatbox8]

Having said that the photo above with Carey leaning on the prop could be just such an aircraft. The angle of the dangle would suggest we should be able to just see the second canon.

[Graham Boak]

Thanks Nick: photos of 607 Sq during the Imphal operations show them without the bands, as would be expected from the dates. The best source is Norman Franks "Spitfires Over Imphal". I also think that MTxxx serialled aircraft are more likely to have been used later than this period, although MT763 was in India early enough. (From the posting, I read the sheet as MT703, but this went to Australia.) I'd be interested to know the background, not having an identification for AF.P in this period. (Coincidentally, a previous AF.P has been credited to another non-SEAC Mk.VIII.)

[tonyot]

Actually that Tempest is pretty tempting. It looks great in silver and there's nothing in the markings that I don't have in the decal spares. Question is though, was it painted silver or natural metal?

From the photo I have it looked to be painted silver but the photos and files from my shelved RAF in Germany book are hard to get to at the moment so I cannot get to it in order to double check, sorry.

[Nick Millman]

AF-P (or at east one of them) should be MT791 according to Andrew Thomas in the Osprey book and was a regular mount of FO J R Andrew, a 6-victory ace who went missing on ground support ops against the Sittang pocket in Burma on 25 June 1945. Several other 607 VIIIs were in the JG5-- serial range.

Worth mentioning Steve Nichols three-part series on SEAC Spits in the July-Sep 2009 MAM, He illustrates AF-N JG559 and AF-G JG500 with light blue codes and spinners, noting that some 607 Sqn VIIIs carried yellow wing leading edge strips, but AF-V JG379 with white codes and spinner. Some VIIIs arriving in Desert scheme were re-finished but retained Azure Blue under surfaces.

There are some good IWM photos of 607 VIIIs at Mingaladon which would have been after 15 May 1945.

Nick

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for filling a few gaps in my records, reminding me of Steve Nichols' article, and guiding me to one correction. I have the squadron's serials, but only perhaps a third of the codes. However, the spinner colour was dark blue on 607's Spitfires, appearing very dark in b&w photos, and painted white later in 1945. I reserve judgement on light blue as opposed to white codes. Neither source suggests Azure Blue for the squadron's Mk.VIIIs, only the Mk.Vs. (Which is great, I was working on one yesterday.)

[Meatbox8]

From the photo I have it looked to be painted silver but the photos and files from my shelved RAF in Germany book are hard to get to at the moment so I cannot get to it in order to double check, sorry.

No problem. I'll be doing a Carey Hurricane first me thinks.

[Nick Millman]

Sorry, the Azure Blue reference was not meant specific to 607. Steve Nichols captions 'J' (unknown serial) of 152 Sqn (an VIII) as having Azure Blue under surfaces although there is little visible difference from the other profiles in Medium Sea Grey!

There is brief footage of AF-C being ground handled here with dark spinner but unfortunately the serial is not visible:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuEKLR0b9Fc

Nick

[MASH4077]

On doing a google search I found a side profile of a Thunderbolt II attributed to Carey serial KJ 348 dated Egypt 1944, dark overall with the red lightning bolt with a small hand of cards with a skull on the facing card positioned just to the upper forward fuselage .

Tony