Any info on Heinkel He 114 with fake British roundels, Indian Ocean 1940

[brewerjerry]

Hi

It would seem stier was operating in the atlantic.

it was in the south atlantic that it met with the tannefels, the ship that rescued the stier's crew when it was scuttled.

presumably if the aircraft with the false markings was only observing and not attacking, might it make a difference ?

cheers

jerry

Edited March 22, 2016 by brewerjerry

[JohnT]

Hi Jerry

No I think if indulging in recon they are participating in a military hostile act and subject to the usual rules of war

Flying a flag in such circumstances is contrary to the Geneva Convention and earlier Hague Regulations

Wearing civilian clothes or enemy uniform to escape as a POW is allowed if non violent and no damage to civilian property but merits disciplinary action only if caught. IE the cooler!

[Graham Boak]

The key point is, I believe, the non-violent bit. The raiders travelled under fake colours but would unveil their German Battle Ensign before firing. That's a bit difficult to do with an aircraft, so I suspect just wearing the roundels would count as an acceptable "ruse de guerre". Were they dropping bombs or firing guns at the merchant ships then the ruling might be different.

Could the Japanese Air Attache in Berlin have come aware of the changes in the proportions of the RAF roundel? Yes, of course, but how long would it take for the various steps involved, and would it rate any great priority for messages back to Japan, and then down to the Tannanfels? They were not in the instant communication world of the internet.

[JWM]

As the one who started the thread I have to say, that the talk is interesting indeed, even if it is drifted far away from He-114.

I am starting work on Mach-2 He 114 and since no chances for "fake Britt" I will do a Romanian one...- as I intended some time ago. However, I still have Dave in stash (Aviation USK/Xotic rebox kit) so likely I will later do instead Dave with roundels... The wave seen on fuselage side behind roundel suggests original Japaneese painting scheme with perhaps earth brown/green top and gull grey bottom. There some some light spots on fuselage which I cannot interprete. The profile on Wing Palette showes two tone grey, so indeed British-like sea-scheme. BTW - on this web page it is said that

"The Nakajima E8N floatplane was painted in British markings for service aboard the German commerce raiding ship the 'Orion' which operated in the Pacific and was based in Singapore during 1942-1943. It replaced the Arado Ar.196 originally carried aboard the ship because of its greater range."

So 1942-43 and Singapore! This will solve the C roundel mystery. This is said to be quoted from the AeroJournal

Best regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

[Nick Millman]

As the one who started the thread I have to say, that the talk is interesting indeed, even if it is drifted far away from He-114.

I am starting work on Mach-2 He 114 and since no chances for "fake Britt" I will do a Romanian one...- as I intended some time ago. However, I still have Dave in stash (Aviation USK/Xotic rebox kit) so likely I will later do instead Dave with roundels... The wave seen on fuselage side behind roundel suggests original Japaneese painting scheme with perhaps earth brown/green top and gull grey bottom. There some some light spots on fuselage which I cannot interprete. The profile on Wing Palette showes two tone grey, so indeed British-like sea-scheme. BTW - on this web page it is said that

"The Nakajima E8N floatplane was painted in British markings for service aboard the German commerce raiding ship the 'Orion' which operated in the Pacific and was based in Singapore during 1942-1943. It replaced the Arado Ar.196 originally carried aboard the ship because of its greater range."

So 1942-43 and Singapore! This will solve the C roundel mystery. This is said to be quoted from the AeroJournal

Best regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

It doesn't seem that the aircraft is in its original IJN camouflage. The lighter undersurface colour would be more evident and as mentioned above there is no sign of the Hinomaru being painted out. The slight discolouration in the photo could possibly be the "ghost" of the original under surface pattern as it varied but it still looks a bit high for that, goes right across the position of the original Hinomaru and is more probably a unique scheme applied to this aircraft.

The 'still' is from a Japanese film of "Dave" in action which reveals many interesting details:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK0xdnayGDI

IJN under surfaces were not really painted "gull grey" - that is USN colour terminology!

Nick

[JWM]

Thanks Nick for explanations. I think, that actually the roundel could be painted on place of hinomaru. So you think that despite the fact, that machine was completly overpainted, the technicians were so deeply suggested by typical for Dave wavy scheme that they reproducted it in other colours?...

BTW - Has anybody noticed something like small "A" on the fin on L5196 in photo posted by Tony?

Regards

J-W

[Nick Millman]

I think, that actually the roundel could be painted on place of hinomaru. So you think that despite the fact, that machine was completly overpainted, the technicians were so deeply suggested by typical for Dave wavy scheme that they reproducted it in other colours?...

Regards

J-W

Well, no. As I attempted to explain above and as the photographs show the "RAF" roundel is painted in a different position to the one usually occupied by the Hinomaru on this type so is not a straight overpainting job. And as also explained the apparent wavy scheme seen in the photo does not follow the demarcation level usually seen on "Dave".

The original aircraft might even have been an uncamouflaged example taken from storage and still in the overall silver dope finish.

Presumably the people who painted the aircraft did so in a way that they thought would imitate the appearance of a British aircraft but the scheme chosen and its colours are not obvious from the photograph.

Nick

[KRK4m]

"The Nakajima E8N floatplane was painted in British markings for service aboard the German commerce raiding ship the 'Orion' which operated in the Pacific and was based in Singapore during 1942-1943. It replaced the Arado Ar.196 originally carried aboard the ship because of its greater range."

So 1942-43 and Singapore! This will solve the C roundel mystery. This is said to be quoted from the AeroJournal

Best regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

Yeah... If Kara Mustafa Pasha was a Teutonic Grand Master ... It's well known (I hope) that since August 1941 Orion had NEVER left European waters, being harboured at Bordeaux.

[KRK4m]

BTW quite another question appears - if even Kriegsmarine had been forced to replace her own (lost) seaplane with a Japanese design WHY did they take the E8N?

Both He 114 and Ar 196 were twin-float designs with floats some 11 ft apart. Each of them had the gross weight of some 8000 lb (3.5 tons) and a combat radius of some 250 nm (300 miles, ~500 km). Thus their closest Japanese equivalents were Kawanishi E7K2 and Aichi E13A1 - also twin-float a/c, weighing ~8000 lb, and featuring twice the radius of their German counterparts (550 nm/650miles/1050 km to be precise). Both were available in huge quantities in 1942 and - if the Germans wanted the raider-based a/c to look "British" - the radial-engined E7K2 could look similar (from distance) to the Shark, Seafox and Swordfish.

On the other side the E8N (itself being the last from.the Vought O2U Corsair descendants) had a central float - the feature not seen among the British seaplanes (except for the Walrus, but this is another piece of cake). The E8N weighed roughly 55% of the Ar 196/He 114 and its combat radius was inferior even when compared to those Teutonic types mentioned.

So in my opinion either the catapults on the raiders proved too weak for servicing the Ar 196 or the E8N was purchased from Japan together with its own appropriate catapult - smaller and lighter than those, which fired the original German planes. Other way (if the Ar 196 catapult was OK) the Germans surely would ask the Japanese for the E7K or E11A.

[Graham Boak]

Perhaps that's what was available, and possibly neither of the larger types could fit into the hold/hangar. Long range wasn't required, and the aircraft recognition of a merchant vessel can be assumed to be approaching negligible. Any type would do. However, it's totally unrealistic to suggest that the Germans would have sent out Ar196s - more than once - on a catapult that was too weak for them.

But whatever the reason, the truth is that they did take a Dave. As has been argued here, more than once.

[JWM]

However, it's totally unrealistic to suggest that the Germans would have sent out Ar196s - more than once - on a catapult that was too weak for them.

Is it true?

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19610128000

http://www.aircraftaces.com/photos/arado-196-2.jpg

[Graham Boak]

Is what true? If you mean black and blue as the colour of the aircraft, no. If that's what the caption means.

[JWM]

Graham - If I got you right, you said, that Arado 196 was too weak to be launched from the catapult and in the links from my previous mail there are photos of a catapult start of Arado -196. So I am a bit confused....

Regards

J-W

[Graham Boak]

No: I meant that the catapults on the raiders would be strong enough to launch the Arado, On post #34.KRK4m suggested that the catapults might be too weak for the Arado. neither of us are suggesting any weakness in the Arado.

[JWM]

Thanks for clarifying what was "it"

J-W

Edited March 30, 2016 by JWM

[Nick Millman]

Catapults probably a red herring. Further to my post # 23 this concerns the He 114 aircraft on Pinguin (Raider 33) and is from the prisoner interrogation intelligence report:-

"Raider "33" carried two He. 114 aircraft, when she left Germany. These had folding wings and were housed in the cargo hold forward of the bridge. They were stowed one above the other, the upper aircraft being on an elevator platform which was raised and lowered by winches. When lowered into the hold the aircraft could be covered up. When the aircraft was being launched, the platform was raised level with the deck. The plane was then lifted by a crane, the cable of which was fastened to four eyes straddling the upper wing, and being the width of the fuselage apart. The aircraft was swung over the side and lowered to the water, the engine having been previously started. During the whole of the operation the aircraft was facing forward and could take off when released."

"The aircraft were painted with usual German sea camouflage, the lower surface of the wings being painted light blue, the upper surface green, blue and black. During its attack on "Filefjell" the aircraft used markings similar to those of South African Air Force, namely, black, white and orange roundels. It was alleged by one prisoner that the Captain later forbade the use of these markings for attacks on shipping. The Arado 196 aircraft supplied by "Alstertor" bore the usual Balkan crosses on its wings."

The craning of the aircraft into the sea for take-off was probably used for the Orion's E8N too.

Nick

[English Electric]

This is a very interesting thread - It was a project I was also meaning to start after having read the excellent Muggenthaler book on the German Hilfskreuzers but still haven't begun yet, alas.

I seem to remember in Ulrich Mohr's (the Atlantis's second in command IIRC) excellent book - now long out of print - that he also refers to Atlantis's He114 having the British markings when being used on missions, I'll dig it out and see if I can find the relevant passage. I had a flick through Rogge's own book - Schiff 16 - but couldn't find any mention in there. There's also a fairly recent Osprey publication on the HK's you may find interesting - if you haven't seen it yet. Basic but intriguing, although the attention to detail with captions isn't great.

Good luck with the project - hope it all goes well.

Chris

[JWM]

Nick - your post is breaking point! Many thanks. The roundels black, white and orange - so not exactly Brtish one. And three colours top camo - "green, blue and black" - and it is named "usual German sea scheme". I just remember three colours on Fi-167 - typical was RLM 72/73 - so could be named green/black - but "blue"? Any idea about this?

Cheers

J-W

[KRK4m]

Same post is a turning point also from another viewpoint. No German Hilfskreuzer raider had a catapult. All aircraft were taking-off from the sea, so the problem of single-float E8N compatibility with twin-float Arados and He 114s was non-existent. Moreover - deck space was the main problem, thus E8N had a great advantage over E7K, E13A and even the German types mentioned above. All seems clear now...

Concerning the German sea camouflage colours I read this as "upper surface green (blue and black)". In other words "two greens - a blue-green (emerald) and a black-green".

Of course it can be only my interpretation (as the lighter of the "sea camouflage" greens was more bluish, while the greyish one was darker), but I can not recall a three-tone uppersurface camouflage of German WW2 seaplane.

Edited March 31, 2016 by KRK4m

[JWM]

but I can not recall a three-tone uppersurface camouflage of German WW2 seaplane.

Yes - but except the white on winter modification. Thus I thought that perhaps in southern waters they add some blue in similar way? Certainly in 1940-42 it is too early for thin curved lines or waves of RLM 76, like in 1943-4 in Mediterranean Do 217 or Ju 88. Obviously black and green is what one can see and what was RLM 72/73

By the way - on the photo here

http://pacificeagles.net/german-raiders-in-the-indian-ocean/

there is a typical dark (two tone) uppersurface and no blak crosses nor cirles on bottoms of wing, I suppouse.

Cheers

J-W

Edited March 31, 2016 by JWM

[Nick Millman]

Nick - your post is breaking point! Many thanks. The roundels black, white and orange - so not exactly Brtish one. And three colours top camo - "green, blue and black" - and it is named "usual German sea scheme". I just remember three colours on Fi-167 - typical was RLM 72/73 - so could be named green/black - but "blue"? Any idea about this?

Cheers

J-W

Sorry, J-W, I can't offer any hard information about that description. Whether the 'blue' on the upper surface simply refers to an assumption of the high demarcation of the under surface colour on the fuselage sides which the intelligence authors of the report might have understood from examining BoB 109s or whether it was something else I couldn't say. Also IIRC 'blue' is mentioned as an upper surface colour in some downed 109 reports too.

When those intelligence officers wrote "the usual" this and "the usual" that they were communicating with the assumption that their readership would have also have seen what they saw and not be attempting to unravel their mysteries 70 years later!

Nick

[JWM]

Thanks Nick for explanations.

I dig out a little more in Net and found some interesting IMHO stuff. I want to sharehoping to learn something more

1. The report on recce flight over ... - Adelaide in Australia of He-114 from Pinguin. It is here:

http://www.saam.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/SAAM-Profiles-HEINKEL-FLIGHT-OVER-SA-1940.pdf

Witness said it was grey, the same my father always says about the German WWII machines from his recalls...;

2. The photo of He-114 said to be taken on Atlantis. It is here:

http://www.compunews.com/qships/r14.htm

For your convenience i copy it here:

The quality is not good but certainly one cannot see here any insignia on bottom of wing nor (perhaps or rather) letters on fuselage. On fuselage there is also rather nothing clear - the structure which is seen looks like some tool used for mounting wing.

3. The photo with seaman, who is painting emblem with pinguin. It is here: http://aerophile.over-blog.com/page/8

The description is not telling a word about circumstancies of doing this photo - is a pinguin the emblem for Pinguin??? I hope some experts could know it....

Interesting is weathering beneth the cockpit and a puzzling light structure on engine which is perhaps a failure of developing the film - I do not know what it is in fact.

Any comments, suggestions, interpretations really welcome!

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

[KRK4m]

2. The photo of He-114 said to be taken on Atlantis. It is here:

http://www.compunews.com/qships/r14.htm

For your convenience i copy it here:

The quality is not good but certainly one cannot see here any insignia on bottom of wing nor (perhaps or rather) letters on fuselage. On fuselage there is also rather nothing clear - the structure which is seen looks like some tool used for mounting wing.

Any comments, suggestions, interpretations really welcome!

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

In my opinion the black (white outlined) cross is visible quite good on the fuselage between the two seamen legs.

[JWM]

In my opinion the black (white outlined) cross is visible quite good on the fuselage between the two seamen legs.

You mean that structure/texture pointed by an arrow above? This might be a cross by it is too flat - the fuselage of He 114 is rounded, even more - it is a circle in cut. I do not see he this curvature. The radius of circle on the rear of fuselage is smaller then in wings area, moreover the perspective is diminishing this radius, so please compade the any possible curve on white outlines with shadows seen on fuselage. I think that it is some object (tool?) which is physicly between two seamen. Perhaps somone has this photo in better quality? Im am not 100% sure about my interpretaion. What is 100% sure is lack of Balkankreuz on lower part of wing. On all typical He-114 in German markings the cross starts directly from the struts on upper wing. (EDIT: for example here: http://www.9thflottilla.de/9he114.htm )

Cheers

J-W

Edited April 1, 2016 by JWM

[KRK4m]

BTW quite another question appears - if even Kriegsmarine had been forced to replace her own (lost) seaplane with a Japanese design WHY did they take the E8N?

I hope I have found the main reason for equipping German raiders with the E8N Dave. Simply - several (maybe even most) German naval airmen were accustomed to fly and maintain it's half-brother...

http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/MK/14-Hidro/Japo_Nakajima_E8N_2.jpg

As all we know the E8N was the much-modified (shorter-chord wings of the same span, slimmer rear fuselage with taller fin) development of the E4N,

http://alternathistory.com/blizhnii-korabelnyi-razvedchik-nakajima-tip-90-2-e4n

which itself was just a licence-built variant of the Vought O2U Corsair.

Another member of the prolific Corsair family was the 700 hp P&W R-1690 Hornet-powered O3U, while one of it's civil siblings was the enclosed-cockpit V-85G, that Germany ordered for the civil-liner assisted air mail service between Germany and the USA.

http://celticowboy.com/V-85G%20%28Germany%29%20r.JPG

These single-float biplanes (serial nos. 1069-1074) appeared in German civil register as D-IBAX, D-ITIV, D-IRIN, D-IGAZ, D-IDIT and D-ITIX, but after the short period of catapult-assisted service on board of TS Bremen and Europa at least four of them received black crosses, surrounded by codes like TK+HR, TK+HS, TK+HT and DD+MZ.

http://celticowboy.com/V-85G%20aboard%20German%20Cruiser%20Koln.JPG

In 1937 and 1938 they served on board of catapult-fitted K- and L-class light cruisers (namely the Koeln and Leipzig). However, by the outbreak of the WW2 all of them have been replaced by larger He 60 biplanes.