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JWM

Any info on Heinkel He 114 with fake British roundels, Indian Ocean 1940

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Hi,

Is anybody know something about the painting scheme of Heinkel He -114, which was used on German ship Pinguin on southern Indian Ocean in 1940? The machine was painted in false British markings. More about it here:

http://pacificeagles.net/german-raiders-in-the-indian-ocean/

It was replaced then by Arado - 196. The profiles for this Arado (also with false British markings) exist, but for He-114 I never seen. I is a very temptating topic to make a model of He-114. The main alternative is Romanian one...

Can anyone help?

Best reghards

Jerzy-Wojtek

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Thanks a lot Jerry - exploring the links in your link I have found, that type which were used (on alltogether 9 corsair ships) were Arado 196 A1, Heinkel 114 A2, Nakajima E8N1 Dave and Arado 231 (prototypes V3 and V4). Much more He 114 were there, than I was expected...And interesting are Ar-231. Were they all (including Ar-231???) painted in false British (or French- like some Ar-196) markings? The painting scheme for Dave is on WingPalette web page.

The list from the link above:

ATLANTIS
Olt Richard BULLA, Ofw BORCHERT
He-114 A-2, 5./196, + 300540
He-114 A-2, 5./196, + 230141
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196, + 040941
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196, + 211141
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196, + 231141

ORION
Olt Klaus von WINTERFELD
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196, +1941
Nakajima E8N1, 5./196, + 270541
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196

WIDDER
Olt Konrad HOPPE
He 114 A-2, 5./196, + 240640
He 114 A-2, 5./196, + 300640

THOR
Olt HAELBICH, Fw LUTZ
Olt Robert MEYER-AHRENS, Ofm STEMBOCK
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196

PINGUIN
Olt Walter MÜLLER, Uffz Hans WERNER
He-114 A-2, 5./196, + 050940
He-114 A-2, 5./196, + 080541
Ar-196 A-1, WNr. 020, 5./196, + 080541

KOMET
Olt LINDEMANN, Fw FUCHS
Olt von WINTERFELD, Fm LÜHRS
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196, + 021040
Ar-196 A-1, 5./196 (?)

KORMORAN
Olt Heinfried AHL, Ofw Johann DUISMANN
Uffz Kurt DUDZEK, Ogfr Fritz KNOLL
Ogfr Albert RUF, Ogfr Willi GALUSCHKA
Ar-196 A-1, WNr. 021, 5./196, +191141
Ar-196 A-1, WNr. 022, 5./196, +191141
Ar-196 A-2, WNr. 139, 5./196, +191141

MICHEL
Kptlt Konrad HOPPE
Olt Ulrich HORN
Ar-196 A-2, 5./196, + 171043
Ar-196 A-2, 5./196

STIER
Ar-231 V-3, 5./196
Ar-231 V-4, 5./196
Nakajima E8N1, 5./196
Edited by JWM

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The Dave is very interesting! - I knew so far the colour profile but not the photo. The roundels looks like "C" type - do es it mean that photo was taken after mid-1942?

Regards

J-W

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According to David Stevens' A U-boat far from home the aircraft was acquired by Orion in January 1941 (other sources say Feb 1941) and the picture may be reasonably be inferred to be between that time and July 1941, when her Pacific cruise ended.

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Ed, if it was in 1941 it means that German crew aticipated shape of roundel C in 1941! That is paradox of history... But it is possible

Cheers

J-W

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Hi

or it means the photo is in-correctly captioned and it is not taken in 1941

but elsewhere late 1942..

cheers

jerry

P.S.

read this, it is not on Orion, but another ship in 1942

http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.ca/2015_09_01_archive.html?m=1

Edited by brewerjerry

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It says that the one with the RAF roundel and serial was on the Orion in 1941, and another was on the Tannanfels intended for Steir. I suspect it was not a forecast of the C roundel but simply someone painting an RAF roundel without access to the appropriate Air Ministry order.

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Well I read it and it seems to confirm everyone else's opinion it was on the Orion.

Nakajima E8N1 "Dave" in German Service

The following very interesting information and photos were sent for our blog from Miro Herold:

One Nakajima E8N1 Dave was in service on board the auxiliary cruiser “Orion”. The fuselage insignia were overpainted with fictitious RAF roundels and white serial number L 5196.

On May 26, 1941 there was an accident during take-off and the E8N1 with pilot Oblt. zur See Klaus von Winterfeld and observer Oberflugmeister Pässler sunk in a position east from Madagascar 18°52’ S and 51°06’ O.

A second Nakajima E8N1 Dave was ordered from Japan for the auxiliary cruiser “Stier”

Edit 1. I see Graham posted the same thing

Edit 2. The picture may well be incorrectly captioned but we have no evidence at all of that.

Edit 3. it was probably a 'free' interpretation of a Type A1 or A2 roundel. Maybe the painter would end up at Trumpeter?

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Hi

but on the webpage i linked the only caption with the two photos is 'on tannenfels'

'an element of doubt is in the frame' in my opinion.

cheers

jerry

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Not my strong point, but weren't some Japanese Hinomaru markings outlined in yellow? If so a white and blue quick overpaint of an existing marking could leave a yellow ring? Or am I talking nonsense?

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I recall a story told by a Japanese observer, concerning the repair of an Arado floatplane (which I had assumed was the Ar196). He was greatly impressed by the interchangeability of the German parts, unlike the bodging (my choice of word) required to do the same to a Japanese type. I understand that the Dave was used by the Germans whilst the Arado was being repaired: as this required new parts being brought from somewhere (one of the supply ships, perhaps?) this took some time. 1941 seems very early, but if it was Orion then it has to be, doesn't it?

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Not my strong point, but weren't some Japanese Hinomaru markings outlined in yellow? If so a white and blue quick overpaint of an existing marking could leave a yellow ring? Or am I talking nonsense?

Yellow outlines were definitely reported by both Allied and Japanese observers, but there is an argument that the appearance was caused by yellowing of the white paint rather than the use of yellow paint per se.

Nick

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In my opinion BOTH Daves could bear serial L5196, as this was the unit name (5.196 actually). The C1 roundel is so evident that it couldn't be foreseen by the German painter a year before the Air Ministry order, thus BOTH photos were taken on the Tannenfels.

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In my opinion BOTH Daves could bear serial L5196, as this was the unit name (5.196 actually). The C1 roundel is so evident that it couldn't be foreseen by the German painter a year before the Air Ministry order, thus BOTH photos were taken on the Tannenfels.

Hi

Nice one :)

I never realised the serial link to the unit

cheers

jerry

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One must be careful when examining photos of WW2 vintage, even those described by the author or by "serious" archives. Look at this photo of the USN F4F

http://www.airgroup4.com/f4f-crash-uss-ranger.jpg

included within the web-available diary of E.L.Crochet - a signalman on USS Ranger CV4.

http://www.airgroup4.com/crochet.htm

Have you ever seen such US insignia in October 1942?

Edited by KRK4m

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In my opinion.... ..... thus BOTH photos were taken on the Tannenfels.

That's an interesting speculation and would explain the picture. The timing does not seem to fit though...........

The chronology of the Tannenfels' war (from the book Axis Blockade Runners) seems to be

31 Jan 1941 - Departs Kismayo (in Italian administered Somaliland) to escape internment

19 Apr 1941 Arrives Bordeaux - refitting and ??? else for all that time?

2 Mar 1942 Departs Bordeaux

12 May 1942 Arrives Yokohama

July 1942 - introduction of roundel in question.

8 Aug 1942 Departs Yokohama

27 Sep 1942 Possibly damaged in battle between Liberty Ship Stephen Hopkins and AM Cruiser Stier, both of which are sunk

2 Nov 1942 Arrives Bordeaux

12 Feb 1943 Severely damaged in Royal Marines raid on Bordeaux.

Eventually raised, repaired and used as a blockship.

Interesting stuff of which there is maybe more information around.

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Hi

The timeline could fit if both photos were of the second aircraft

stier and tannefels met in sep 42, which would tie up with the roundel date

cheers

jerry

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It can be made to fit but it requires postulating signals or other means of communication informing personnel in the Far East that the roundel design had just changed which I think unlikely.

I quite agree with you that the actual roundel in the picture sure looks like the C type we are all on about - there must be a simple explanation.

PS - note the massive thread drift from He114s.....!!!

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The thing that I 1st thought on seeing the photo of the E8N1, was that is a perfectly proportioned C1 roundel. How it came to be I couldn't hazard a guess, damn interesting thread though, drift or no drift.;)

Steve.

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FWIW the position of the "RAF" roundel does not match the normal position of the Japanese Hinomaru on this type of aircraft. The "RAF" roundel is immediately below the observer cockpit whereas the Hinomaru was applied to the rear of that cockpit with the forward edge of the Hinomaru border roughly in line with the rear edge of the cockpit.

Also the under surface colour on camouflaged "Dave" followed an undulating demarcation approximately along the middle of the fuselage side running up from the lower wing trailing edge to under the tailplane and very evident in profile view. This suggests that the whole aircraft was probably re-painted and raises another question as to the colour used.

The Dave was delivered to the Orion on 1st Feb 1941 following an overhaul and refit at the Maug Islands. It arrived on board the supply ship Münsterland. One account suggests that the Dave was not launched using a catapult as it was reportedly damaged against the ship's side when being prepared for take-off after being lowered into the water. Operating Dave that way was common in the IJN too. One schematic of Orion shows no catapult.

The Dave was lost on 26 May off Madagascar when it capsized during an attempted take-off, again suggesting that it was not catapult launched.

Nick

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Given that the C roundel was not used in the Pacific and Indian Oceans, where red was already being removed from the A-type roundels, I find it difficult to believe that its planned adoption in the UK would be known in Japanese waters, and adopted there before it was even fully operational in the UK.

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Really interesting reading guys. Thanks

Would the adoption of the "new" C1 roundel not be known to the Japanese Air Attache in Berlin and that information passed back to Tokyo?

One thing I did wonder about though and that is whether painting up an aircraft in this way not equivalent to wearing the other sides uniform in combat? If so I wonder what would have happened to the aviators and those in charge if they had been captured. I suppose they could have been shot under military law legitimately ? I would make a distinction between captured aircraft that were flown with British/German markings for purely test evaluation purposes (ie not for combat) and just painted in captured markings so to avoid friendly fire incidents and those used as a ruse in combat.

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