airscale Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 Thanks Ced & evening folks ,,so a bit more done now I am back in the groove - starting with the lower cowling, a real nasty one to make as it curves in many directions, and sits between two cowl panels so tolerences and fit are critical.. I made a tape template and the holes for the dzus fasteners.. ..FAIL.. as I burnished it, it wrinkled at the edges and all the holes were out of alignment so this ended up in the bin.. Take 2 - this time I just made the panel, thinking I can add to it once the shape is formed.. I also started pre-forming it by rubbing the shape onto my thigh with the handle of my rivetting tool.. ..I started to tape down the panel - working the shape from the flattest part at the back and chasing the curves to iron out all the wrinkles with hard wood blocks,,, ..ended up with the panel formed and just a bit of trimming needed to sit nicely against adjacent panels.. ..and after trimming the final panel - I decided not to try and make holes in it as it would be hard to clean the inside into a nice flat finish without distorting the shape - I will add the fasteners later... ..because it would be nearly impossible to just drop the panel into position with the glue on both surfaces (there is zero adjustment), I taped one edge so I could hinge it into place.. ..and stuck down, it looks ok and actually doesn't need too much cleaning up... ..there are some small wrinkles to take care of though.. ..after sanding it is a good basis to add the fasteners and rivet detail.. ..more next time.. TTFN Peter 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) To quote my youngest son, Alex, "Oh my!" That was a nail bitter Peter. Pretty soon you could find yourself working on the pit again! Would I be correct in saying it's almost time to attach her u/c and get onto three wheels? Edited January 27, 2017 by Pastor Rich just because I could! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 20 hours ago, Pastor Rich said: To quote my youngest son, Alex, "Oh my!" That was a nail bitter Peter. Pretty soon you could find yourself working on the pit again! Would I be correct in saying it's almost time to attach her u/c and get onto three wheels? Thanks PR - no, a long way from getting the gear on - there is a lot of skinning to go yet! started the day adding the dzus fasteners to the lower cowling - on the other cowl panels I made holes to set them back a bit, but on this one it wasn't really an option. I did try making a dent with a punch, but the end result wasn't worth the effort so I just stuck them on the surface - personally, I don't think they look any different, so I may have got away with it .. I wanted to make the fairing for the air intake and as you can see here it can be quite an untidy fitment.. ..I had made the intake already and used it to start mapping a template for the fairing skin - this is the first of two as it took a couple of goes to get right.. ..after cutting it out I test fitted and got an idea how it all might sit together.. the main issue is it is two parts when it should be one continuous fairing... ..I thought about many ways to blend the two together - foil, filler, silver tinted filler, tinted CA, resin etc and after testing a number of things settled reluctantly on painted filler. I masked up and put a band of P38 round it after CAing them together.. ..here it is right after removing the tape.. ..not my best work, but I can't think how better to do it.. ..I also finished the lower wing skinning except around the gear legs and dry fitted the intake & radiators.. ..probably get ready to start skinning the rear fuselage next TTFN Peter 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Now you've got me grinding on how to render the intake, Peter! What's worse is that I have to go to work thinking about this when I would rather build something. I would suggest developing the part in CAD and 3D printing it rendering both delicate and heavy details as one unit. Spraying it with metallic paint; adding some distressed finishing to blend with the surrounding burnished litho might do the trick? Forgive my backseat driving! Cheers!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabat Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 This is just fantastic, very impressive work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett9307 Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Absolutely stunning great work 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 More great stuff Peter - I love the way you literally bend this stuff to your will! The fasteners look great and intake looks good to me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 evening all & thanks chaps ..the last week or so has been a lot of fiddling about measuring, checking, and drawing on references - I looked at skinning behind the cockpit and working backwards, but in the end decided it would be better to start from a fixed point like the tail and work forwards.. ..I also noticed a lot of the panels are layered - you can see here on the tail that three panels sit on top of each other at one point.. ..I also picked up how the rear fuselage is different from the MkXVI in the montforton plans due to the retractable tailwheel, though some of the panel lines and access hatches are common, like this round one... ..I started by drawing out the panel lines and rivet patterns from a good side on reference picture... ..I then transferred this to the model, though this is the first of three re-draws I ended up doing before I was happy.. ..then added the lowest lying panel to start layering others onto - this one has the top edges longer than the real panel so it can be feathered into the surface and still take a softer metal panel on top without leaving a trace of the edge underneath as it gets burnished down.. ..and with one of the tail panels so I can work forward and layer the next panel adjacent to this one - there is a big access hatch which will go on here as it sits proud on the surface... ..and the area starts to form - I have done these panels on both sides so I can add panels that wrap around the fin.. ..thats all for now, back soon TTFN Peter 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F1 Insider Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Epic skills. Nothing more to say about it. However, having worked in the printing industry and using litho sheets, I found them to almost like spring steel and don't really stay "reshaped". What method are you using to form the litho and, critically, get it to stay that way. Looking forward to your next update. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 On 03/02/2017 at 0:39 AM, F1 Insider said: Epic skills. Nothing more to say about it. However, having worked in the printing industry and using litho sheets, I found them to almost like spring steel and don't really stay "reshaped". What method are you using to form the litho and, critically, get it to stay that way. Looking forward to your next update. Thank you I either roll the part to give it some curvature if it is on one axis, or anneal it with heat if it is a compound curve - it can be very resistant unless pre-shaped, so much so I have had panels lift at the edges if I don't do it properly ..a little further on - I started to skin the fin leading edge - initially thinking I could do a wrap-around part so there is no seam at the leading edge (I can't see one in pictures so thought it was one panel?) - this didn't work out as the leading edge kept crinkling ip due to the curvature in so many directions, so I settled on a panel each side.. ,,this is the real one... ..due to various failures in attention I did the part multiple times - the failed wrap around, I made the access hole too big in another, I kinked the metal by bending it when I was flattening it after rivetting on another and made the thing too long on another.. ..eventually got it right and annealed the leading edge to start forming it around the model... ..once it was fitted, I also added the access panel to the fin, and the last bit of skinning at the tip... getting there... TTFN Peter 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Looking fabulous. These mistakes, do you have a soft piece of wall that you use to bang your head against? Or a large vocabulary of swear words? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob85 Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 You appear to be really motoring with this one, metal work is looking... as ever... very realistic! Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Peter, I feel for you. Especially knowing how much you put into making each part -- only then to bin them one after another! High fives for you not only claiming victory here but for showing the process of failure as well. Encouragement for those of us who fail on a far more frequent basis! Simply Brilliant!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 evening, and thanks folks ..now about the skinning - I need help, or at least some thoughts from those in the know... I have used the montforton plans to mark out where the fuselage frames are as these seem pretty consistent between Spitfire marks (as is the datum) ..thing is, when I look at the hatch where the camera was, it is not the same (I think) as the Radio hatch in earlier marks - I hate to put red lines everywhere, but maybe this illustrates the problem - the plan and a good side view seem to show the door lower and nearer the datum than on the plan? It seems to be the same size (allowing for curvature on the plan, but there definately seems to be a difference... ,,this seems to be backed up by this pic of TZ138 where the door is on the middle panel line, and sits in line with the top panel line (and is closer to the black & White CG circle which is also seen on the plan) ..any ideas? doesn't it look to be in a different place? please share thoughts or opinions - and if you have them; facts & drawings would be perfect TTFN Peter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Just a thought, but maybe it was lowered when the low back versions came out because otherwise there would not be adequate room for a camera? Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunarhighway Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) I assume you're using the excellent monforton plans of the XVI, wich while very similar followed a different evolution than the xiv, and while both received a cut down fuselage at some point the xvi was based on the less advanced mk ix fuselage( that was essentially a beefed up mk V) and it always had the hatch on the port side both in high and later low back versions, while high back xiv's where based on the XII that was in turn based on the more advanced mk VIII fuselage (wich had a retractible tailwheel) but apparently also numerous extensive but less visible structural changed. production high back XIV's had the hatch moved to the starboard side however while later versions had hatches with camera windows on both sides. here's an example of a early low back xiv no door door of course non of this really helps you out... :/ edit: i did a bit more research (ahum... i actually pulled out my copy of sam publications spifires part2)... apparently the radio compartment was moved back in the fuselage on the high back xiv, and the hatch moved to the starboard side, to counter the CG shift by the heavier and longer griphon setup. with the introduction of the low back the hatch moved forward slightly (with the aft edge being above the end for the rear wing fillet) as can be seen in the image above. on later XIV's a camera compartment was introduced with a fixed window on the starboard side and a access hatch with window on the port side... taking roughly the place of where the original radio hatch had been on the XVI... so it looks like you not only have to add the hatch on the starboard but also on the port side... hope that helps Edited February 8, 2017 by lunarhighway 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave665 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Excellent progress Peter... those panels look stunning. As for the access panels in the rear fuselage. I suspected that there would be differences in this area between Race #80 and the Monforton plans when I made this post. As lunarhighway says the radio was moved back two frames in the XIV to help balance the griffon engine. The access hatch was move to the starboard side between frames 15/16. The battery access panel remained on the lower starboard side between frames 17/18 and should hopefully be in the same position as the Monforton plans. It makes sense that the camera panel is lower on the low-back XIVe as the camera lens was angled 12-ish degrees downward in the cradle. It would have provided room to get the longer cameras in the compartment. As you have observed Peter the camera access panel looks to have its hinge in line with the horizontal panel seam going aft. So perhaps the hing effectively extended the longeron behind the seam to frame 13 on the port side. The radio access panel also looks to have its hinge on the equivalent seam on the starboard side. So perhaps when designing the XIVe low-back fuselage they moved the positioning of these two access panels so their hinges could be attached to the framework. Hope my observations help. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 thank you chaps for your help I now think I have resolved the hatch questions... the more I looked, the more it confirmed the layout is different to the XVI and the door is set lower. In addition the Battery hatch is moved back and on the other side. I have this pic of TZ138 so can see where the hatches are, and also they have 3 circular latches (some just have two press fasteners). Another thing that became clear with the montforton book (best $29 I have ever spent) is the panels are layered - it took some time to set out which needed to go down first to get the layers in the right order... ..I noted the numbers on a drawing so number 1 is the first panel to go down and so on... ..with number one down, I moved on to number 2 that has the two hatches seen above.. ..I took a tape template from the lines I scribed on the model for the frame and hatch locations having worked out the forward one is the same size/shape as the camera one on the other side.. ..the panel also has to be cut oversize so I can layer onto it... ..then used a punch to radius the corners of the hatch apertures after rivetting.. ..and the finished panel.. ...fitted into place.. ..same process for the hatch itself... ..adding rivets etc.. ..I also added the hinge to the top of the hatch by folding scored ali sheet and making a slot in the fuselage.. ..all fitted into place.. ..added the top panel by the fin and think this shows how the layered effect comes out.. ..having fun! TTFN Peter 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 There are no more superlatives. I don't know how to exclaim my amazement - every time I see the latest work, I think it's a dream. Cheers, Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in Lincs Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, airscale said: ..having fun! You're not the only one! Thank you, I'm enjoying this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave665 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 16 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said: You're not the only one! Thank you, I'm enjoying this. Second that! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 A break from my work is a feast for my eyes! Glad you're having fun with it Peter!! Your hinges and rivet detail are beyond words! Love the layering of the panels too. Sheer artistry!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookytooth Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Third that !!!! Simon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvyn hiscock Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Yeah, not bad...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 thank you gents, and good afternoon ..the start point today is the fin fillet panel - a horrible one-piece form that curves in many directions not least of which a concave one as it follows the fuselage up into the fin. ..as I would have to form the panel over the model I needed a smooth surface as otherwise it will deform and follow any ridges or panels so I tried to fill where I could to support it.. the top fuselage panel seen here (with the wonky rivets) ended up getting damaged during later forming as I had annealed it so it went all soft and disfigured.. ..this is the first of three attempts, they kept splitting on the leading edge, or had too many creases to knock out - eventually I used a thicker material (thanks to LSP member Dicas - I think it was tin sheet from Portugal) and a balsa block with a deep vee cut into it to work both sides of the sheet downwards over the leading edge at the same time, then it was a matter of tapping out the creases.. ..after a LOT of work I ended up with a basic form from which to trim the fillet shape.. ..after a LOT MORE work, I finished shaping and applying the fillet - then it was a case of adding the fasteners. A neat trick to get equal spacing across an odd length is to have a sheet of lines and cut to an angle that matches the number of spaces you need, between the start and end points - then just tick off the marks.. ..and the finished fillet - there are a few marks I can't seem to shift so we will just have to put that down to 'hangar rash..' ..the best part of two days bechtime went into it.. ,,after that it was the lower fuselage panel that has a cutout for a hatch - this needed a piano hinge so for those I score a sheet of litho with closely spaced lines (mid-left), a strip is then cut and folded (bottom) and a slot is cut in the fuselage to hold the strip (top)... ..then the door and hinge were added, but straight after adding those, I made the lower panel itself.. I left the door cut-out scored, but in place until I had rolled the sheet to take a curved form.. ..and all of it fitted in place.. I have to be acreful not to remove the scoring on the hinge when I clean up the surfaces with wet n dry and wire wool.. ..after clean up, I pretty much can't go any further forward as I get into panels that go over where I cut out a section to get to the cockpit.. ..looks like I am back in the cockpit next and that will take some time to get sorted TTFN Peter 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now