Spookytooth Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Unbelievable work Peter Simon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cngaero Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 This is becoming an education for me. Your craftsmanship and attention to detail are inspirational. Keep up the good work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Welcome home Peter! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted July 16, 2016 Author Share Posted July 16, 2016 thanks chaps do you think the wheel wells were interior green? I am convincing myself they are even though I would love to leave them bare metal, but I wanted to test my reasoning as the airframe clearly went through some sort of strip process to be down to bare metal in it's race days? It's ex-wartime manufacture like any other Spit It raced in 1949 so doubt was ever stripped down & re-assembled, maybe just an external skin paint strip In the two colour pics I have I think I can see it darker however, it is a bare metal airframe would they have stripped / repainted the wheelwells? ..what say you my friends? TIA Peter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwart Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Aluminium Lacquer or Medium Sea Grey are the likeliest contenders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Peter, Keeping in mind I have no first-hand information on this plane, but I do know this from friends who bought aircraft in the post-war market and who maintained these aircraft immediately after V-E Day: 1. Maintenance and parts could be rather sketchy at wars end -- surplus planes needed work! I had a friend who bought a P-38L after the war. It needed SO much work they had to sell it as they could not afford the parts and maintenance. And they were BOTH Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics! I would venture to guess that #80 required a fair amount of maintenance before joining the race circuit. For that reason, I would think that she was stripped and reduced to bare metal in the course of being prepped. (Of course, you could ask Tony!) Cheers! PR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunarhighway Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 The pictures do not show a hint of green in the wells, but their resolution in to poor to conclude anything, however the inner surfaces on the gear door have been stripped of paint so there's a good chance they would have stripped the whells too 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 thank you chaps aluminium laquer it is then - In other words I will leave as is next question as I move on to the radiators - I have the amazing Monforton drawings and the Radiator size & spec for the MkIXc covered in the book seems to match the Rads fitted to a XIV in every respect except at the rear edge.. here is a study from the book posted under fair use - note the rear of the fairing curves up from the bottom to meet the wing (on the R/H side below).. ..but TZ138 and all XIVs as far as I can tell have a straight edge at the rear like this one.. ..it makes me think they might be different overall to the ones in the book and before I start to build them I wanted to confirm and plead if anyone has any plans / drawings of this straight edged type (all the ones I can find have a curved rear edge..) or knows if this is just a modification to the earlier type??? I was just about to start building them and noticed so want to clarify first TIA Peter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HL-10 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 I have just finished catching up with this. WOW! Outstanding skill and workmanship! Truly impressive! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGA Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Peter your work is maddeningly good. You make me want to shout and curse at you for simply being too good. I was doing some stuff on my own model and I was quite satisfied with my work. Then I saw this and I literally feel just like my 1 year old son trying to draw something. You think you're doing an awesome job but after looking at it again it turns out all you have done is chew on your pencil and draw most of your drawing on the floor instead of on the paper. You really possess skills that are beyond me and probably anything I could ever do when it comes to this kind of work and that is incredibly inspiring. You sir in my eyes are phenomenal and you should be knighted for the awesome work you are doing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjames68 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 iIrC, griffon radiators are deeper by quite a bit than the merlin radiators, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunarhighway Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) thank you chaps aluminium laquer it is then - In other words I will leave as is next question as I move on to the radiators - I have the amazing Monforton drawings and the Radiator size & spec for the MkIXc covered in the book seems to match the Rads fitted to a XIV in every respect except at the rear edge.. here is a study from the book posted under fair use - note the rear of the fairing curves up from the bottom to meet the wing (on the R/H side below).. ..but TZ138 and all XIVs as far as I can tell have a straight edge at the rear like this one.. ..it makes me think they might be different overall to the ones in the book and before I start to build them I wanted to confirm and plead if anyone has any plans / drawings of this straight edged type (all the ones I can find have a curved rear edge..) or knows if this is just a modification to the earlier type??? I was just about to start building them and noticed so want to clarify first TIA Peter the griphon engined spits had bigger radiators than the merlin ones, so while based on the same basic design they where taller and also a bit longer than those on the mk IX/XVI... this lenght difference was at the bottom, causing trailing edges to the sidewalls that angleslightly back (bottom of the radiator housing being bigger than the portion where it meets the wing), where merlin engined variants had sidewalls that where curved forward (area where the housing meets the wing being bigger than the bottom part of the housing), also the rear flaps where of a different design, it hink they had smaller 'sidewalls' and could drop open much lower, this might have been to allow airflow trough the radiators when the wing flaps where lowered as these would effectively block off the rear of the radiators, a spitfire design flaw only worsened by the fact the radiators where outside the propeller ark so there was virually no airflow trough the radiators while taxiing slowly, wich could lead to engine overheating,. typically flaps where only lowered during landing and had to be raised as soon as possible, also during taxying, as dirt thrown back by the prop blast and tires could bounce off the flaps and damage the rear end of the radiator... but i digress. This page has some fine pictures of late spitfires with their radiator flaps lowered...as would be the case during slow flight. personally i think it makes for a bit of "drama" to have them that way... http://www.spitfire.dk/i_prod_eng.htm as for references i can highly recommend sam publications Supermarine spitfire part2 griphon-powered (and their part 1 on the merlin variants) it comes with a set of plans for all the varians... although in 1/72, but also with walkarounds and many details on interior components. For what it's worth, here's also a link to some personal walkaround images i took at the Royal Museum of the Armed Forces and Military History in Brussels of a belgian XIV (with an mk XVIII style rudder). pictures are not the best but they may fill in some missing angles https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMBqGIiQt7-F05H6xRqr5APWhI7YQAJpUXPvKyp0OKVHy-o5-D3gTtFabWR7XKXnw?key=am8wTkVvbFR2UmNDSlNPSTN2WVN0SDdEamtrX3h3 Edited July 17, 2016 by lunarhighway 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 so, a little update and a steep learning curve.. the griphon engined spits had bigger radiators than the merlin ones, so while based on the same basic design they where taller and also a bit longer than those on the mk IX/XVI... this lenght difference was at the bottom, causing trailing edges to the sidewalls that angleslightly back (bottom of the radiator housing being bigger than the portion where it meets the wing), where merlin engined variants had sidewalls that where curved forward (area where the housing meets the wing being bigger than the bottom part of the housing), also the rear flaps where of a different design, it hink they had smaller 'sidewalls' and could drop open much lower, this might have been to allow airflow trough the radiators when the wing flaps where lowered as these would effectively block off the rear of the radiators, a spitfire design flaw only worsened by the fact the radiators where outside the propeller ark so there was virually no airflow trough the radiators while taxiing slowly, wich could lead to engine overheating,. typically flaps where only lowered during landing and had to be raised as soon as possible, also during taxying, as dirt thrown back by the prop blast and tires could bounce off the flaps and damage the rear end of the radiator... but i digress. This page has some fine pictures of late spitfires with their radiator flaps lowered...as would be the case during slow flight. personally i think it makes for a bit of "drama" to have them that way... http://www.spitfire.dk/i_prod_eng.htm as for references i can highly recommend sam publications Supermarine spitfire part2 griphon-powered (and their part 1 on the merlin variants) it comes with a set of plans for all the varians... although in 1/72, but also with walkarounds and many details on interior components. For what it's worth, here's also a link to some personal walkaround images i took at the Royal Museum of the Armed Forces and Military History in Brussels of a belgian XIV (with an mk XVIII style rudder). pictures are not the best but they may fill in some missing angles https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMBqGIiQt7-F05H6xRqr5APWhI7YQAJpUXPvKyp0OKVHy-o5-D3gTtFabWR7XKXnw?key=am8wTkVvbFR2UmNDSlNPSTN2WVN0SDdEamtrX3h3 many, many thanks - that makes a lot of sense and really helps me understand what I am looking at and what I need to do - will have a good look round those links . Also I forgot my books! I think I have the SAM one - I certainly have a few that are going to have drawings.. first - the very first thing I have ever made on a lathe - a little pipe union from some hex stock turned down to look like one I see in Tony's photo's - I slid it on some lead wire and covered in heat shrink tubing.. ..much to learn, but really pleased I have one now and the opportunities it offers ..I laid the piping in the well as a dry fit.. I have also added a border strengthening strip to the roof of the wheelwell where it meets the walls.. ..it was at this point I decided that I would stop work on the wells as there is a lot of building and handling to go yet before such fragile additions should be added.. thats when I asked about the radiators and have been trying to work out whats what with your help... to start with I can now see the kit parts are deeper than the MkIX plans I have - you can see the plan here and the depth is about 30% more.. ..they match perfectly in width - I have started to mess with the one on the left... the bottom profile is too flat on the kit part - the plan profile at the bottom matches pics of a XIV.. ..a couple of sweeps with a sanding block and I can sort that out.. ..I will also need to add longer sides - here they should stretch right to the back of the drawing, and be as wide at the rear.. I think I can use them as a basis, though they need a bit of work and will also need to be hollowed out a lot before I skin them. I also need to add the curved flare into the wing fairing as that is missing entirely... One annoying thing is I had some beautiful PE Rad screens made when I designed the PE bits - now they are the wrong size so will have to see what if anything I can do with them I am off on the hunt for a drawing of the Griffon rad, but it does seem as if the merlin one was just extended thanks for all your help guys TTFNPeter 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Heath Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Lovely work there Peter, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted July 17, 2016 Author Share Posted July 17, 2016 found it! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Let the madness begin! Sorry, I couldn't help myself... PR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunarhighway Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Quiz qestion,(given we're on the subject of radiators, and it would probably of intrest to more people here) Does anyone know it the radiator units and/or the fairings where symetric or identical? Obviously the fairings would be mostely mirror images in order to fit the wing angle, but there's a small hatch on the bottom of the fairing to one side, wich i've seen depicted as either mirrored or both on the same side both in drawings and models. as the radiator actually contains both the oil cooler and the coolant radiator i assume this little door is associated with one of these, wich brings on the next part of the question: where the radiator units identical and perhaps interchangable (wich would make sence from a maintenance and production perspective) or was there a left and right hand unit (or perhaps as oil and coolant radiators could swap places?) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) Quiz qestion,(given we're on the subject of radiators, and it would probably of intrest to more people here) Does anyone know it the radiator units and/or the fairings where symetric or identical? there is a very real danger I may be able to contribute some actual knowledge here I just looked closely at the plan and copy a few sections of it below the title of the plan threw me first by saying '1 each per aircraft' so I thought this drawing (37941) was one of two - plus at the bottom of the title is a note saying Type2/B (so there must be an 'A'? indicating this was a drawing of one of the two radiators... however, the other circled areas show annotations about where things are different for Port or Starboard - eg the access hatch you mention says 'Assembled on inboard side of starboard fairing and outboard side of port fairing' the vertical circled bits basically call out 'Port' or 'Starboard' for rivet details & stiffeners- all of which leads me to conclude that there is one unit that is different as noted for each side.. ta-daaaaa - I take a bow that or wait for someone to tell me what I missed / don't know , but thats the way it looks to me edit - not quite - see below... Peter Edited July 18, 2016 by airscale 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Is your rad drawing a 379__ number? If so, then that's the one. Your kit parts are for a later (or "other development") style. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 Is your rad drawing a 379__ number? If so, then that's the one. Your kit parts are for a later (or "other development") style. Hi Bob - yes it is 37941, though earlier I thought they were the same on port and starboard and they very nearly are except for the curved fairing where it meets the wing - this is deeper outboard than inboard (as in more curved out toward the wingtip), but otherwise (bar an access panel) seem the same in structure. ..to this end I used the plans to create template shapes and took a little artistic licence to make these the same for now and I will adjust them when I fit them... ..put these together and put some balsa bits in so as not to use loads of P38 filler... ..filled the shape - there is masking tape on the sides that I just peel off to save work cleaning up.. ..one of Tony's fabulous pictures shows how the side walls meet the wing - there is a curved fairing that is wider at the rear and then a fixing strip that runs it's length holding it to the wing.. ..again using the plan I added a sheet of litho cut down to just the curved fillet fairing rather than the fixing strip as I will make that later when I skin it.. ..you can also see the radiator master has been shaped and given lined edges with a sharpie so I can see how it is developing as I shape it.. ..and the finished master.. ..I drilled some small holes in is where those curved fairings were to make sure I get a good close pull onto them - here it is mounted on my heath robinson vac former.. ..and surprisingly the first one worked out fine ..here are the pair with the kit parts they replace which as Bob says are a later version fitted to the FR47 - the parts still need a lot of work from here, but I am happy they are right, they are also hollow so I can build up the structures and strengthening before I skin them in litho.. ..quite pleased actually as I am so hit and miss at vac forming, but I think this was a simple enough shape that even I didn't screw it up... TTFN Peter 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Heath Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Lovely work on the vacforming, I know how hit and miss it can be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Rich Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 BRILLIANT! SIMPLY, BRILLIANT!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev67 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Modelling brilliance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airscale Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 evening ladies thanks for stopping by and leaving such kind comments I have been continuing with the radiator fairings. I remade the vacforms after modifying the master to add a bit of a flat at the bottom I hadn't noticed on the plan, and also cut out some big housing holes in the wings where the radiators themselves will go... ...you can see here how the hollow has been routed out with a dremel in the wing... ..the holes needed lining with skin and actually these panels have quite prominent raised rivets so these were added before bending & forming to shape.. ..and soon the linings were done.. ..the vacformed fairings are very weak so needed building up so I can sheath them in litho. I marked out the radiator position which is at an angle and used some laminated balsa sheet to form the body - I will face these with the radiator detail... ..I added some inner walls from plastic sheet and flooded the cavities with thick CA to give strong walls, I also bent some square brass stock which was going to form the leading edge.. ..in the end I didn't use this as I decided it is too hard to work the shape needed... ..I built it up from hard plastic square stock instead.. ..it needs a lot more work as there are some subtle features to capture, but its a good start... as I suspected the PE I made for the radiators doesn't fit the deeper Griffon rads so I need to think about how to make the grille and the core next... thats all for now.. TTFNPeter 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomprobert Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Absolutely phenomenal wok once again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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