F-35 Discussion Thread. Please curb your political enthusiasm and play nicely.

[Alan P]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3666644/Lightning-flies-rainbow-UK-s-100m-stealth-F-35B-jets-roars-Britain-touching-RAF-base-ready-flown-new-617-Dambusters-Squadron.html#ixzz4D1K1yeXm

I would say we could make a drinking game out of the factual errors in the report, but it would be a very quick way to get drunk.

They also stole the rainbow picture without crediting the original photographer. Needless to say, he was not impressed.

[Alan P]

Three F-35A's have now arrived in the UK. Six now in total on UK soil/airspace.

© Valerie Insinna, Defense News

Edited June 30, 2016 by Alan P

[Tony C]

Believe it or not it was a Parliamentary decision to retain lo-vis markings. The same decision also said we would not have individual squadron markings either, so technically both RAF and RN aircraft will have identical markings. Sad but true.

It's not mission-critical to have low-visibility markings, but it is a policy decision. There are other F-35s that have had hi-vis applied (eg the first F-35C) but since part of the purpose of having F-35s is low observability, you get low-visibility markings.

I believe it's because at present, only certain colours of paint are properly formulated so as to preserve the aircraft's stealth capabilities.

Thanks both, I'm not really upto date with modern equipment so I appreciate your input

[Alan P]

If you're in the Rosyth / Fife area tomorrow (Friday 1st July) an F-35B will be doing a flypast at 1400 (2pm).

Lucky you!

[eng]

*cough's behind hand* ".....still ugly!"

Eng

[Slater]

Is the UK buying the optional gun pods for the "B"s? I understand that the "A" variant is the only one with the internal gun.

[Antoine]

There's no built-in gun, or the gun pod come as a supplement?

[GMK]

There's no built-in gun, or the gun pod come as a supplement?

The B model (the one the UK has bought) isn't fitted with the internal cannon that the A model has as there's no room for it.

Should a gun be a mission requirement, there's a centreline, stealthy podded system.

[Alan P]

All our B models will have the podded gun GMK described. Not on initial entry to service, however.

[Slater]

The gun initially envisioned for the F-35 was the Mauser BK-27, but somewhere along the way it gave way to the 25mm rotary cannon. Haven't done a detailed comparison of the two weapons, but I would imagine that the 27mm gun would be somewhat lighter than the Gatling?

[Alan P]

The gun initially envisioned for the F-35 was the Mauser BK-27, but somewhere along the way it gave way to the 25mm rotary cannon. Haven't done a detailed comparison of the two weapons, but I would imagine that the 27mm gun would be somewhat lighter than the Gatling?

The GAU-22/A weighs about 3x as much as the Mauser, but it would be mission specific if carried at all.

[Antoine]

The B model (the one the UK has bought) isn't fitted with the internal cannon that the A model has as there's no room for it.

Should a gun be a mission requirement, there's a centreline, stealthy podded system.

Remind me about the Phantom drawbacks.

What's the aircraft first mission?

[Alan P]

Remind me about the Phantom drawbacks.

What's the aircraft first mission?

>deep breath<

It's a multi-role strike fighter. It's an information gatherer, a deep penetrator, a point attack stealth fighter, a SEAD and DEAD interdictor, a CAS platform, an electronic warrior, a FAC platform, a BVR interceptor...

It's "first mission" includes lots of things that weren't even on the horizon when the Phantom was designed. If a Lightning has to use a gun in A2A combat, it would represent a serious and fundamental failure of everything it was designed to be.

[Slater]

Since that whole Vietnam unpleasantness, the USAF has been firmly wedded to internal guns in it's fighters.

[Procopius]

Yet weirdly, had a worse exchange rate with MiGs over Vietnam than the Navy's gunless F-4s. The lack of an internal gun on the Phantom was a case of blaming training and doctrinal deficiencies on the equipment. The much-maligned AIM-4 Falcon is credited with 5 MiGs, versus 6 claimed by guns. Sidewinders claimed 80, and Sparrows 60. The gun was rarely a decisive factor in air-to-air combat for USAF crews.

[Slater]

AIM-4 was pretty much a failure (Col Olds ordered their use discontinued on his wing's aircraft, IIRC), but the charts in the back of the below document would suggest that many more than 6 gun kills were claimed):

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a476450.pdf

[Procopius]

AIM-4 was pretty much a failure (Col Olds ordered their use discontinued on his wing's aircraft, IIRC), but the charts in the back of the below document would suggest that many more than 6 gun kills were claimed):

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a476450.pdf

Yes, quite right, I mistakenly used the figure for kills with the F-4E internal gun.

[Alan P]

Whilst it's an interesting diversion, the gun talk is irrelevant. This is 2016, and Vietnam was a very long time ago.

I'm waiting for someone to produce kill ratios for all A2A conflicts involving western nations since 2003. Then we'll see the true value of the gun in today's aerial conflicts. Better to save the weight. When you're talking about an aircraft that can fry an enemy with its radar, guns are REALLY overrated.

[Kallisti]

Would the gun be only of any real use in the ground attack role?

[Slater]

I'd say that the gun is largely but not completely irrelevant. F-15E's have been called on to do strafing in Afghanistan, and the gun was thought to be be REALLY irrelevant on that particular platform.

[Alan P]

I'd say that the gun is largely but not completely irrelevant. F-15E's have been called on to do strafing in Afghanistan, and the gun was thought to be be REALLY irrelevant on that particular platform.

In that case, again, it will be mission specific whether a CAS-tasked aircraft will carry it. This isn't difficult.

[Slater]

True. This points out a difference in philosophy between the USAF and USN/USMC more than anything else.

[TallBlondJohn]

They're here

via @Aeroresource ©twitter.com

Typhoon, meet Lightning

© MOD via British Defence News

Roll on RIAT and FIA 2016!

Al

Well the monotone paint scheme is perfect for the British climate

[bentwaters81tfw]

What is it tanking off? That's not a Voyager. 13 refuellings in 10 hours, it's living up the reputation of a Lightning.

[colin]

Or were they keeping it light on fuel and taking the chance for training/data with air to air refueling ?