The Spadgent Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Excellent stuff Tony. Great to see the fish primed and ready for painting. Good luck with the new airbrush. Funny we're working on rigging at the same time. awesome work on the torp cradle too. John. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMF Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Looks good! Nice work on licking this one into shape. It is amazingly satisfying adding your own details. I've done the old Airfix and the Frog one, still got the Matchbox (Revell re-box) and new Airfix to go. Regards, Adrian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomoshenko Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Yes much better after a lick of paint, and certainly satisfying adding all these details. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted March 31, 2016 Author Share Posted March 31, 2016 Excellent stuff Tony. Great to see the fish primed and ready for painting. Good luck with the new airbrush. Funny we're working on rigging at the same time. awesome work on the torp cradle too. John. Thanks John. Hope your own rigging is going ok, been following your progress at a larger scale with interest - you've certainly been cracking on with things! I like the way your weathering turned out - I think I might try the 'drippy' method from the 'weathering white' clip on Y'tube when the time comes. I wonder how effective it will be at 1/72 with less pronounced details though... Looks good! Nice work on licking this one into shape. It is amazingly satisfying adding your own details. I've done the old Airfix and the Frog one, still got the Matchbox (Revell re-box) and new Airfix to go. Regards, Adrian Cheers Adrian. It sounds like you're assembling a squadron of the things! Look forwards to seeing you posting your own progress on the new Airfix version, it looks a great build. I'm trying not to eye up the 1/48 Tamiya job too often.... Thanks for the encouragement lads. Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 As in this tank configuration? Can you guys confirm for me whether or not 824 Sqn machines used a similar dark lower fuselage/underside scheme for the raid as those shown here, or the lighter undersides shown in the colour scheme from the Matchbox instructions? Thanks for the invaluable advice so far. Tony Tony, Both of those profiles are wrong. 815:4A should have higher demarcation, with the black distemper over the Sky Grey higher up the fuselage side. It also carries a serial on a Sky Grey panel (unknown) as per the illustration of P4075. 819:5Q has the demarcation drawn better, but there are no known photos of black distemper being applied to Swordfish from this squadron and plenty that show them without. P serial Swordfish tended to have the fuselage roundel further forward than drawn. There is also no photographic or documentary evidence of black distemper being applied to Swordfish seconded from Eagle for the operation. Note also that other than the torpedo carrying aircraft, Taranto Swordfish carried external long range tanks. HTH, IG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Note also that other than the torpedo carrying aircraft, Taranto Swordfish carried external long range tanks. The new(-ish) tool Airfix Mk 1 has the external long range tank, if you need a pattern, Tony (in fact if you need it you can have mine, cos I won't be using it). But then, come to think of it, you've built the torpedo already - internal tank it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 Both of those profiles are wrong. 815:4A should have higher demarcation, with the black distemper over the Sky Grey higher up the fuselage side. It also carries a serial on a Sky Grey panel (unknown) as per the illustration of P4075. 819:5Q has the demarcation drawn better, but there are no known photos of black distemper being applied to Swordfish from this squadron and plenty that show them without. P serial Swordfish tended to have the fuselage roundel further forward than drawn. There is also no photographic or documentary evidence of black distemper being applied to Swordfish seconded from Eagle for the operation. Note also that other than the torpedo carrying aircraft, Taranto Swordfish carried external long range tanks. Hi IG, That's invaluable information on colours and configuration - thanks! Not the first time I've found an illustration to be at variance with the historical record. As an 824 Sqn bird I'll be sure to lay off the distemper lower undersides and good to know I can leave the fuel tank in the cockpit as a torpedo-carrier. I really need to get a good authoritative volume on the raid; I came across an order-of-battle that lists an aircraft '5B' (the tail number in the Matchbox build) in both the 1st and 2nd waves, which as I understand both had torpedo-carrying aircraft, is rather confusing. The RN's own Historical Archive webpage for 824 Sqn is also rather unhelpfully listed as 'under construction' at present...more digging to do on that issue. Thanks again for your help! Tony The new(-ish) tool Airfix Mk 1 has the external long range tank, if you need a pattern, Tony (in fact if you need it you can have mine, cos I won't be using it). But then, come to think of it, you've built the torpedo already - internal tank it is! That's v. kind of you to offer the tank. I may get back to you on that one if my current Stringbag doesn't burn itself out and I end up building both waves of the Taranto attack in full... Can't help noticing that your own 'in progress' listing of builds contains many of the FAA aircraft on my own wish list of future items. Good man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beard Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 [...] I end up building both waves of the Taranto attack in full... The next step, after that, would be a 1/72nd scale Taranto harbour (complete with ships). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 The next step, after that, would be a 1/72nd scale Taranto harbour (complete with ships). - followed by a group build of the Mediterranean theatre! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beard Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 - followed by a group build of the Mediterranean theatre! I reckon that's do-able. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 - followed by a group build of the Mediterranean theatre! I would be up for that, so many subjects so little time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beard Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I would be up for that, so many subjects so little time.... I thought you meant a 1/72nd model of the actual Mediterranean area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) I thought you meant a 1/72nd model of the actual Mediterranean area.I wonder what square footage that one would require! We're going to need a bigger group.... Actually I might try and calculate that figure at 1/72 just for the insanity of it... Edited at 11.45 ...which at 1/72 scale would need to be just under 13500 sq miles in size...? Edited April 2, 2016 by TheBaron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 ...which at 1/72 scale would need to be just under 13500 sq miles in size...? I'm not up for that, I only have a 0.000004 Sq Mile Cave...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winenut Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Bring it on....Matchbox....love it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 6, 2016 Author Share Posted April 6, 2016 Bring it on....Matchbox....love it Just a quick update as it's been a busy week. After scouring this forum to make sure I wasn't going to make a fool of myself with the new airbrush with regard to thinning paint in the proper ratios (as well as nervously taking the airbrush apart for the first time for a test cleaning..) I steeled myself earlier to do my first bit of model airbrushing, telling myself that even if it went wrong I should be honest and post the results. As it happens my attempt at preshading looks somewhat clumsy, but it could have been worse. Firstly a few last minute changes prior to shading: Looking at the state of some wartime Stringbags they got a good bashing in places so I 'roughed up' the fuselage a little more in those places where there seemed to be significant wear and tear, making sure of the difference between canvas and metal areas. I also remembered the arrestor hook. Unlike the Matchbox model the real thing is recessed in the fuselage, and is a lot less clunky than the one in the kit, so I carved out the recess and used stretched sprue to make arrestor gear that was better scaled; not immaculate but I think it will do a turn at 1/72: I'm conscious I'll have to build some tiny actuators to link up the elevator and rudder cables to but I'll leave these, like the rigging, until after the paint job is finished as I'll doubtless snap them off with my graceful technique. Anyway, here's my first ever preshade: A few sputters and stutters and I'll need to practise getting finer lines. It's only a cheap compressor so I'm still juggling pressures and paint flows/distances to get a feel for the process. By the weekend I hope to have undersides and top camo done. I'll post the results in due course. Even if it looks like a Jackson Pollock.... PS. I meant to say I took delivery during the week of an SCR-01 scribing tool from John Vojtech in the States. To a novice like myself a brilliant tool for scribing and helped immensely in carving the arrestor recess in a straight line. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomoshenko Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 That's coming on nicely mate, and I like your openness and honesty about posting your efforts, warts and all. I don't think I'd have been so brave myself first attempt with an airbrush. But hey it's looking fine so hats off to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spadgent Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) Looking absolutely great, all that extra detail is really paying off. I have found that the pre shade doesn't need to be too accurate, yours however looks spot on you jammy git . I did however find the less accurate the more chance of a happy accident, I had quite a few of those on my fish. . Looking forward to the paint going down. Good luck with that new air brush. John. Edited April 6, 2016 by The Spadgent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I agree with John above, your pre shading doesn't have to be accurate. Grubby doesn't stop at the edge of the panel line but goes both sides. Btw I'm Ireland based myself - South Dublin, whereabouts roughly are you? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Hi IG, That's invaluable information on colours and configuration - thanks! Not the first time I've found an illustration to be at variance with the historical record. As an 824 Sqn bird I'll be sure to lay off the distemper lower undersides and good to know I can leave the fuel tank in the cockpit as a torpedo-carrier. I really need to get a good authoritative volume on the raid; I came across an order-of-battle that lists an aircraft '5B' (the tail number in the Matchbox build) in both the 1st and 2nd waves, which as I understand both had torpedo-carrying aircraft, is rather confusing. The RN's own Historical Archive webpage for 824 Sqn is also rather unhelpfully listed as 'under construction' at present...more digging to do on that issue. Thanks again for your help! Tony Ray Sturtivant's The Swordfish Story has (p.58) a helpful table of Taranto aircraft by code, crew and warload. There were 4 warload configurations: torpedo with 1 flare, 6 250lb SAP bombs with 1 flare and 16 flares with either 2 or 4 250lb SAP bombs. Drop me a PM if you'd like to know which had which. With the initial carrier letter not painted up, the inclusion of Eagle aircraft meant there were 2 each of 4F, 4H, 5A, 5H and 5Q on the raid. I'm sure serials for Taranto raid Swordfish are out there, or more likely in there (ie the collected oeuvre of Sturtivant) but I haven't found/collated them yet. The above table gives just one serial: L5H (Illustrious aircraft) was P3999. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 That's coming on nicely mate, and I like your openness and honesty about posting your efforts, warts and all. I don't think I'd have been so brave myself first attempt with an airbrush. But hey it's looking fine so hats off to you. Cheers Tomoshenko. I've always really appreciated when other modellers have explained the difficulties they've encountered - it makes the process seem less intimdidating to a newcomer like myself Looking absolutely great, all that extra detail is really paying off. I have found that the pre shade doesn't need to be too accurate, yours however looks spot on you jammy git . I did however find the less accurate the more chance of a happy accident, I had quite a few of those on my fish. . Looking forward to the paint going down. Good luck with that new air brush. John. Thanks for that John - you're own Stringbag is looking mighty fine. Bring on that torp! I agree with John above, your pre shading doesn't have to be accurate. Grubby doesn't stop at the edge of the panel line but goes both sides. Btw I'm Ireland based myself - South Dublin, whereabouts roughly are you? Point taken - I promise to get grubbier GB I'm over in Galway myself. Are you ever in Mark's Models over in Hawkins St? I get a lot of my gear sent over from them. Ray Sturtivant's The Swordfish Story has (p.58) a helpful table of Taranto aircraft by code, crew and warload. There were 4 warload configurations: torpedo with 1 flare, 6 250lb SAP bombs with 1 flare and 16 flares with either 2 or 4 250lb SAP bombs. Drop me a PM if you'd like to know which had which. With the initial carrier letter not painted up, the inclusion of Eagle aircraft meant there were 2 each of 4F, 4H, 5A, 5H and 5Q on the raid. I'm sure serials for Taranto raid Swordfish are out there, or more likely in there (ie the collected oeuvre of Sturtivant) but I haven't found/collated them yet. The above table gives just one serial: L5H (Illustrious aircraft) was P3999. PM sent Seahawk Cheers for all that lads. Firstly the undersides are now painted up. I managed to keep things fairly even this time but conscious from the amount of time I spent playing with distance and pressures etc. I still need to find the right technique for this brush. I left the paint cure overnight: Fired up by your posts I got stuck in again this afternoon, masking off the fuselage and both wing upper surfaces. In hindsight I would have been better leaving the supporting struts off the undersides of the tailplane as it turned into a White Tack and masking tape sculpture not leaving any gaps for overspray to creep through: Finally I sprayed on the first of the two camo colours and felt for the first time I had some measure of control and understanding of the brush. Of course this is with Tamiya acrylics and I'll have to learn it all over again with other paints.... So that's it for tonight. I'll leave that to cure and mask off and spray the second camo tomorow if poss. It's my youngest's birthday then so I've 6 sugary-drink fuelled kamikaze pilots to spend the afternoon shepherding. Some airbrush therapy might be just the thing to recover with By the way, can anyone recommend a respirator for airbrushing with that won't steam your glasses up? Mine are steaming up worse than Benny Hill at a bathroom window using those disposable cup mask jobs... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spadgent Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 You seem to be a natural at this air brush lark. It's all looking rather splendid. I use the disposable masks as I'm glasses free, so no advice on that front. Hope the party goes well. Did you get some of that weather wash stuff? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Just a quick question - I genuinely don't know the answer but someone will. At the time of the attack in Nov 40, were the Swordfish undersides Sky by that time or Sky Grey? I know the order to repaint them came out at about that time but the Meditereanean fleet had other things on their minds. Also should the lower wing and portion of the fuselage under the mainland be counter shaded - can't remember the colours (Sea Grey and ?) or had that to been stopped by this time? As I say I don't know the timing - I'll be out in the cave later and have a read of Stuart Lloyds FAA Camouflage & Markings to see if I can figure it out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iang Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) Definitely Sky Grey undersurfaces for Swordfish at Taranto. I've been working on a list of Taranto Swordfish serials for a long while. It is surprisingly hard to piece together, which is why I didn't include it in my FAA Camouflage and Markings book. Both the Squadron Diaries survive, which I have copies of, and I have about two thirds of the serials now, though some of these are an educated guess on the basis of the evidence that has survived. The serial that I assigned to Williamson's 4A in the book is definitely wrong - not least because I suspect that the 4A he was shot down in is not the same aircraft pictured on the back cover of my book (photographed around October 1940). I think the original 4A was either one of the 815 Swordfish flown off for shore duty that was not re-embarked, an early victim of fuel contamination (there is one 815 Squadron aircraft that suffered this fate that I cannot account for), or a landing accident. On the latter, I own the personal photograph album of a junior 815 Squadron Swordfish pilot who was admonished for writing off a 815 Swordfish and transferred out of the Squadron just before Taranto. His usual aircraft was 4B (which incidentally carried the name "Blunderbus" prominently on the fin ), which disappears from the photographic and documentary record, so it was probably this one - but he could have been flying the CO's aircraft I suppose. Given how poorly researched some recent publications on Taranto appear to be, I'm tempted to tackle this myself at some point. IG Edited April 8, 2016 by iang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) GB. I defer to IG's post above as his research is far more knowledgable than my own. (I'm still dithering over what to decal my torpedo build, given the difficulty in pinning down the Eagle-originated 5B/824 Sqn of the Matchbox version...) The earliest Air Ministry Order given in my copy of 'British Aviation Colours of WWII' (from the RAF museum series) giving specific colouring for the temperate sea scheme for FAA aircraft is AMO A.926/40. Section 7/ii clearly states Sky Type 'S' for undersurfaces, but caution may be required as the order wasn't published until 12th December 1940, a month after Taranto. There were clearly earlier AMOs but I don't have copies I'm afraid. Bear in mind as IG mentioned in an earlier post that of the individual squadrons taking part, some had black undersurfaces, whereas 824 didn't. You're right about counter-shading of the lower wing (to counteract upper wing shadow) being a feature of Swordfish paint schemes. My copy of the Aeroguide Classics series on the Swordfish MksI-III (by Ray Rimell) has a clear note in the Camouflage and Markings section to this effect: 'the 'shadow-shaded' camouflage scheme, with the upper surfaces of the lower wing finished in lighter colouring than the remainder of the scheme in order to compensate for the shadows thrown by the upper wing. The colourings of the fuselage and wing struts is dependent on the particular colour used on the adjoining airframe surface at the base of each unit.' The example aircraft it gives this for though is a 1942 Mk.II one from 810 Sqn, so I can't link this directly to Mk.I Taranto craft. Needless to say I only read this after I'd already started painting both wings the same shade, so I'll have to run without shadow-shading myself.... Tony Edited April 8, 2016 by TheBaron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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