RAAF Spitfire Vc A58-141 and "Westland" cannon blister questions

[Procopius]

So AML has a decal set for a RAAF Spitfire Vc, A58-141 (ex-EE845) with the mysterious and more squarish "Westland blisters" over the cannons. I bought the set because it intrigued me, but do any photos exist of this aircraft as it's depicted on the decal sheet? And can anyone shed light on the Westland blisters?

[Ascoteer]

I dug out my copy of Spitfire Markings of the RAAF Vol. 1 by Frank Smith & Geoffrey Pentland, Kookaburra Technical Publications 1971.

Sadly there is no photo' of the aircraft in question but there is a 2 view drawing of it showing it still with white tail surfaces (which were later removed with the fabric surfaces becoming aluminium doped). There is some information from a Mr Hugh Kennare stating that the aircraft had originally been coded UP-H but that it had been pranged several times and was regarded as a 'jinx aircraft' hence being recode UP-? Apparently a similar thing happened to 79 Sqn's MkVIII A58-543 and it too was recoded UP-?

There is no mention of a 'Westland' cannon bulge.

However, there is a photo' of 3x 79 Sqn Mk Vcs at Goddenough Island in late 1943 and it would appear that upper wing bulge is more akin in size and shape to that fitted to the MkVb Spitfires, even though it is clearly a C wing with the outboard gun stub.

[Work In Progress]

More importantly, "Slippery Tank"?!?!?

[Procopius]

More importantly, "Slippery Tank"?!?!?

We've all done things we're not proud of for money.

Sadly there is no photo' of the aircraft in question but there is a 2 view drawing of it showing it still with white tail surfaces (which were later removed with the fabric surfaces becoming aluminium doped).

Is it natural metal with a white tail?

[Ascoteer]

Is it natural metal with a white tail?

Indeed.

If you give me a day or 2 I'll scan in the relevent bits and send them to you.

[Graham Boak]

Is that not the twin-cannon bulge as opposed to that for a single cannon? Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but I wasn't aware of anything specific to Westland.

[Procopius]

Is that not the twin-cannon bulge as opposed to that for a single cannon? Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but I wasn't aware of anything specific to Westland.

Nor was I, but AML seems to think there's a different, flatter style of bulge. They even sell a resin bit (which I foolishly bought).

If you give me a day or 2 I'll scan in the relevent bits and send them to you.

It would be very much appreciated, thank you!

[Giorgio N]

The squarer wide bulges for the Mk.Vc appear in a few pictures, although the one I know best is not of a Westland built aircraft but ES295, a CBAF built Vc. Another well known aircraft showing them is JL379, another CBAF built Spitfire.It should be noted that the Special Hobby 1/48 kit supplies both styles of wide bulges, the more common rounder ones and the squarer ones (and of course the narrow style). I have seen nothing linking directly this style of bulges to Westland production.

Regarding your aircraft, I've checked a few books but could not find any picture of this. The Australian War Museum lists a negative in their collection that should represent this aircraft but no preview is available.

[Ed Russell]

I had a conversation with Edgar Brooks about this some years ago and he sent me this clipping which he said was from somewhere.................

The large cannon bay fairings with the squared-off front did actually exist. There are a few photos of Spitfires with these fairings in the various Spitfire publications - Wojtek Matusiak's Spitfire Pt 4 p49 of that publication there is a picture of Mk.Vc JL379 with that design of fairing. Of note, I have only seen Mk.Vcs with this design and have yet to sight a picture of a Mk.IX with the same. I have never been able to track down any text relating to this design of fairing but I have always assumed this to be something peculiar to Westland produced Mk.Vs, and late production examples at that.

Hopefully AML consulted with someone who knows their Spitfires before issuing this sheet.

[Graham Boak]

I recall now a discussion about such a squarer fairing, but from the pictures I saw, it was simply the usual fairing viewed from an unusual angle - in my opinion at least. Perhaps there are more and clearer pictures around. My feeling was that the true shape was somewhere in-between the usual drawings of it as a teardrop and the squarer ones, so something that didn't show a nice teardrop was being defined as different.

PS written before Ed posted, but I don't think I'd change my mind without seeing more photos. Preferably two from the identical positions that showed any differences.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Graham Boak

[Giorgio N]

Graham, look for ES295 in the History, picture is in the same page where the serial is listed. The rear of the bulge on the starboard wing is well visible and clearly differs in shape from the more usual design. In particular, the sides are straight with a well defined angle between sides and rear part

[Graham Boak]

It is this "clearly differs in shape" that I struggle with. I couldn't find another photo of a 4-cannon Spitfire from the same angle. I agree that this shape is not that shown on lots of drawings. There are photos of the front of the wide blister, which are more finely rounded. I believe, or certainly suspect, that the bluntness of the front is an artefact of being viewed from the rear.

[Magpie22]

So AML has a decal set for a RAAF Spitfire Vc, A58-141 (ex-EE845) with the mysterious and more squarish "Westland blisters" over the cannons. I bought the set because it intrigued me, but do any photos exist of this aircraft as it's depicted on the decal sheet? And can anyone shed light on the Westland blisters?

I do not have photographs that show that aircraft as it is depicted on the decal sheet. I am afraid that AML have been given duff gen. However, I have attached a number of photos of UP-? when it was in service with No. 79 Sqn.

Some of the points of difference are:

• UP-? was A58-231, (MA352). A58-141 was indeed UP-H, but it crashed into the sea on 3 Feb 1944, long before natural metal Spits appeared at No. 79 Sqn.
• Since A58-231, UP-?, was a Castle Bromwich built aircraft the subject of ‘Westland fairings’ is academic in this case. The fairings over the cannon feeds on UP-? were of the later, narrow, type.
• The rear view mirror was of the later ‘streamlined’ type.
• There is no ID lamp on the dorsal fuselage aft of the antenna mast.
• There is a whip type IFF antenna under the starboard wing.
• The spinner was natural metal, not red or black.
• The A/D panel was matt black.
• I also feel that that the decals may be in error in respect to the fin flash, (looks taller to me), and the upper wing roundels, (look larger to me).

A58-231 and A58-222 were flown from No. 15 ARD at Wards Strip, up to No. 79 Squadron, (then at Momote), by F/O Scott and F/O O'Dea, on 16 and 17 August 1944. Doug Scott clearly remembered them both being in natural metal at the time. Doug only flew A58-231 twice again, (22 and 23 August), before he left the squadron on the 30^th. In his logbook, he noted A58-231 as his third 'Y', but was not sure if that letter was applied. I think it may have been, and its removal may account for the lack of a serial, (collateral damage when the letter was removed). Unfortunately, I don’t have a photo of the starboard side of the aircraft, which may have helped confirm if that did indeed happen, as the serial would have been intact on that side. The serial of the other aircraft flown up at the time, A58-222, is clearly visible in photos.

A58-231 remained with No. 79 Squadron until November 1944, when the squadron returned to Australia to re-equip with the Spitfire VIII.

Cheers,

Magpie 22

A58-231 flying near Los Negros Island in late 1944. Not natural metal prop spinner and size of upper wing roundel and fin flash.

A rather poor shot, but it gives a good indication of the size and proportions of fuselage roundel and aircraft code letters. Note the white empennage.

Being prepped for flight. Again note the white empennage and the servicing mat on the wing root. The heater tube is also fitted to the exhaust manifold of this aircraft.

Malta ace, Flight Lieutenant Len Reid DFC is the center pilot of this group. Note the IFF whip antenna under the starboard wing, (visible just behind the lower prop blade). Prop spinner appears to be white in this shot as is the front cannon barrel fairing. The different finishes on the various panels is also noteworthy

Flight Lieutenant Ron Susans DSO, DFC, in the cockpit of UP-?, late 1944. Ron took over command of the squadron in January 1945. Again the different finishes of the panels on a natural metal aircraft are apparent. Note also how the thick panel screw on for extra protection for the fuel tank sits well above the lines of the aircraft.

[Magpie22]

I dug out my copy of Spitfire Markings of the RAAF Vol. 1 by Frank Smith & Geoffrey Pentland, Kookaburra Technical Publications 1971.

Sadly there is no photo' of the aircraft in question but there is a 2 view drawing of it showing it still with white tail surfaces (which were later removed with the fabric surfaces becoming aluminium doped). There is some information from a Mr Hugh Kennare stating that the aircraft had originally been coded UP-H but that it had been pranged several times and was regarded as a 'jinx aircraft' hence being recode UP-? Apparently a similar thing happened to 79 Sqn's MkVIII A58-543 and it too was recoded UP-?

Hugh Kennare, who was a pilot with No. 79 Sqn, flying MkVs briefly and then Mk.VIIIs told me that was all b-s. There is an element of truth re the Mk.VIII A58-543. It was a replacement for A58-436 which had been coded UP-N but, the pilot who had been wounded in that aircraft, opted for '?' rather than continue with what he regarded as an unlucky letter.

No. 79 Squadron had three aircraft coded UP-H.

The first, JG897,(A58-179), was lost in a landing accident on 13 June 1943 when Sgt Gardner ran into JG954, killing Malta ace F/O Brennan.

The second EE845, (A58-141), was lost when it crashed into the sea on 4 Feb 1944.

The third, A58-256, survived until November 1944 when it suffered a landing accident. It was on the squadron and active as UP-H at the same time as UP-?, so obviously UP-? could not have been A58-256.

Magpie 22

[Ascoteer]

Hugh Kennare, who was a pilot with No. 79 Sqn, flying MkVs briefly and then Mk.VIIIs told me that was all b-s.

Wow! Shoot the Messenger why don't you?

I was merely quoting from the book where it references him telling the story.

Obviously you know better (or Kennare has changed his story since 1971).

Either way I'm out, I'm not about to be insulted by some random internet person merely because I attempted to help out a fellow modeller.

[Brenden S]

"I'm not about to be insulted by some random internet person"

FYI Magpie 22 is no random internet person.

[Magpie22]

Wow! Shoot the Messenger why don't you?

I was merely quoting from the book where it references him telling the story.

Obviously you know better (or Kennare has changed his story since 1971).

Either way I'm out, I'm not about to be insulted by some random internet person merely because I attempted to help out a fellow modeller.

Ascooter,

My apologies if I offended you in any way. My comments were not intended as a rebuke. I merely as you put it "attempted to help a fellow modeller".

You made it quite clear that you were quoting from a book and I thought it was clear that my comments were directed at that quote, not you. I believed that I had more accurate information so, rather than let an old misconception stand, I tried to correct it.

Magpie 22

[RAL]

Ascoteer

Just for the record, Magpie 22 is a highly respected Australian author and RAAF aviation historian. What he doesn't know about RAAF Spitfires and their pilots is not worth knowing. He is a gentleman and a scholar and is not in the business of insulting people but rather assisting modellers to enable them to build accurate representations of their RAAF models. As Brenden says "he is no random Internet person".

RAL

[Ed Russell]

This raises an interesting general point about oral history.

Obviously you know better (or Kennare has changed his story since 1971).

It is unfortunately true that as people become senescent (and particularly perhaps pilots due to their unhealthy lifestyle) they do remember things differently to how they actually happened. These are then picked up at a later stage by 'historians' who may not have the expertise to determine the subject's mental health and thus start revising history.
Not that this may specifically apply in this case but I am aware of many 'pilot's direct evidence' that is just not borne out by facts. In general, the closer in time to the date of the occurrence, the more accurate the recollection is.

[Biggles81]

Keep this great material coming Pete. Loving it.