1/48 NN660 first Spiteful prototype and RB516 production Spiteful

[gingerbob]

Ah, the pieces (of data, not plastic) are starting to fall into place. I got some good scans of photos from VoyTech that help fill in some gaps, and I re-discovered that I had a drawing for the Spiteful intake (as on NN660) which gives me a critical dimension or two. I hate guesswork!

Hopefully some time tomorrow I can give an actual, photographically documented update...

bob

[gingerbob]

Pros and cons- far and away the loveliest day of the year so far today, and yesterday was quite nice too, so I've been too busy accompanying the family to play with horses (and calves) to focus as I'd hoped...

[Graham Boak]

I suspect that you might have cut too much off the radiator. If you compare with the front three-quarter views, they do look quite deep. Perhaps do a quick rule of thumb on equal areas for the Spiteful and the Mk.XIV radiators? Or perhaps a bit more for the even more powerful Griffon variant? How does your version compare with the other kitted examples?

[gingerbob]

Hi Graham,

The best reference I had for the radiator depth (or rather housing) was a clear side-on photo. I scaled this and used it as a template. I agree that in the photo it looks like it might be a hair shallow (or some fraction of a hair), but I think part of that is due to the relatively thick leading edges, which I will thin down from the inside.

The Trumpeter radiator housings are about right in width and length, though they put the "core" lines (and thus flaps) in not quite the right spot. Whether I'll bother to fix that is an open question! In shape they now compare well to the Falcon ones (I should clean one of those up to do a side-by-side comparison). The Silver Cloud ones aren't as wide as they should be, and I'm not sure I looked at them any further than that, though I will.

The radiator is (unlike the Trumpeter kit's) submerged into the depth of the wing, which I'll be getting to once I start chopping up the wing. Good idea to do a SWAG comparison of area...

bob

[gingerbob]

mumble mumble bloody Spiteful kits mumble Attacker grumble mumble!

So, yes, here I am again with head still spinning like a hamster on caffeine. This morning I had the bright idea to steal bits of Trumpeter Attacker wing (which is, well, don't get me started) and I may yet do so, but pretty soon I'm going to just renounce science, grab my axe (or XActo) and start slashing and hacking, and see what happens!

There is the further complication of trying to introduce it to the Spit XIX fuselage, but that's going to involve chunks of Spiteful anyway, so more-or-less the same rules apply.

I've had a pretty busy week in other directions, so haven't had as much time as I'd like for this pursuit. Not that it would necessarily have done me any good! The good news is that a package has arrived from Barracuda, with some lovely prop blades and a spinner that's rather too beefy for the XIX kit... [Edit: which is not to say that Barracuda's is wrong- it isn't.]

bob

Edited April 27, 2016 by gingerbob

[spitfire]

Definately braver than I, I can just imagine your brain spinning around with ideas, I'm bad enough with simple straightforward builds.

Cheers

Dennis

[gingerbob]

Dennis, the problem is that I have too many choices, though few good ones. Hey, I know- I can use a Hasegawa core fuselage, and that'll go well with the lacking chord of the Trumpeter wing! (just kidding)

As for the Attacker, they made a crude attempt to address some of the geometry problems of the Spiteful/Seafang wing, but it introduced as many problems as it "fixed". For example, they pushed the wing outboard to fix the "long pointy" outer panel (see my earlier post), which brought the gear well (which is itself different from the other kits) out with it. BUT they shifted the position of the cannons, which messed up their relationship to the gear well! With the larger gear well, they had to enlarge the leading edge, introducing a slight bow instead of straight leading edge, and making the airfoil utterly not laminar-flow-ish. Now with photo!: (a little hard to see, but look at that lovely, sleek leading edge shape...)

Below, Attacker wing on left- note how tip has been brought back to where the tip attaches to wing proper on the Spiteful. Note also how much bigger the holes for the cannon are, and how this affects that panel's size.

Edited April 28, 2016 by gingerbob

[spitfire]

Think I will stick to my Iconicair Spiteful, but the Hybrid Mk XIV does strangely attract me.

Cheers

Dennis

[gingerbob]

Now some good news: I've been checking some fuselage dimensions, and the Trumpeter Spiteful is generally quite faithful.

The Griffon blisters are a little anemic, but there's hardly a Griffon kit out there that gets them close to right. I'll probably try to build up the front a trifle. The cowl length is right for a single-rotation engine. The nose ring (where the spinner sits) is probably a hair under, but it seems to agree with the Airfix Spit XIX. (We're talking a third of a sixteenth of an inch, which isn't much, but if you put a proper-diameter spinner there you sure can see it. That's about a half-millimeter for you other folks.) Maybe a good thick coat of primer will help!

The outline of the wing root fillet (in profile) is about right, it just lacks any "3D" shape. The wing itself does need to shift aft, but I've also realized that the virtual absense of the "swoop" between the trailing edge and the fuselage contributes to the visual impression that the wing is way too far forward. (Aside from the chord problem, I think that they made the mistake of putting the spar at Frame 5, as with the Spit, instead of 5" aft of that point.)

The aft fuselage (behind the cockpit) is a little tall- if you look at the profile of the little insert that goes under the hood, that's about right, so the fuselage should follow straight back from there. (That piece also needs to be built out to meet the fuselage sides- it is "pinched" to fit under the canopy.) If you make the spine match that "under glass" decking, and flow smoothly into the kit's line about at that panel line where the red background begins, that's what the fuselage shape should look like.

Finally, the rudder post is a smidge too far back- I think that the fin has too much chord, but I haven't pinned that element down precisely.

Other than those "nitpicks", I'm calling it good. Which may sound like a backhanded compliment, but really I feel like I can work with this.

Now back to the wing...

bob

p.s. I absolutely promise some pictures before the day is out! (phase one done- wing shots added to previous post above, to keep with relevant comments.)

p.p.s. Does this mean that I am officially announcing the addition of a "proper" Spiteful to my prototype build?

Edited April 28, 2016 by gingerbob

[Caerbannog]

(...)

p.p.s. Does this mean that I am officially announcing the addition of a "proper" Spiteful to my prototype build?

Yes.

René

[Giorgio N]

You're doing a great research work Bob, all this information will be of use for many other modellers who want to build a more accurate Spiteful

[gingerbob]

That's what I'm hoping, Giorgio, and thank you. It would be easier to just whack away and sit back thinking, "That looks better!" But I'm trying to document what I'm doing so that it can be repeated, and so that I understand what the actual goal is.

Today promises to be a busy day, but I'm hoping to make some incisions...

[gingerbob]

Well, as usual several days later... "ruin" model number one:

Step one of a carefully worked out plan... at least I hope it is...

The section of wing root was necessary (I think) to extend the wing panel inward, because I need to mount it further out. It'll make sense when I get further along. [EDIT: Actually, as of 4 May I'm not at all sure this "extension" was necessary. Stay tuned! The wing needs to move out, I'm just not sure whether the fillet will cover the existing panel once it IS moved out.] I also need to move the wing aft, at least from the spar back, which is why I started the cut there. The leading edge only needs to come back about 1/32", so I'll just shave it and shape it. Perhaps the worst element of these kits is the wing root fillet, so as long as I cut within that area, it'll get covered up by the new "3D" fillet I shall have to create.

The day has just begun

Edited May 4, 2016 by gingerbob

[Col.]

Brave move Bob.

[gingerbob]

A spinner comparison. The basic cowl of the Spiteful isn't bad- maybe a teensy bit slender. But looking at built kit photos, it looks terribly "pointy" to me. Part of it is the modest Griffon blisters, which I intend to help out with a bit of padding. But I finally compared the spinners:

Airfix XIX on left, Barracuda center, and Trumpeter right. Because of the mounting pin on the Trumpeter backplate, I had to stand it slightly ahead of the others- in reality they're about the same height or length. But the Trumpeter spinner is far more conical. It and the XIX both have a base diameter (scaled up) of 27", while it should be 28". Barracuda's is about 28 1/4. As I mentioned before, if you put one directly on the other (or on the kit nose) the difference is very obvious. I'll play around a bit to see if I can "stretch" the nose to fit, but I suspect I'll stick with XIX spinner and call it good.

Now back to that wing...

Edited May 3, 2016 by gingerbob

[Col.]

I can see how the spinner profile alone would mess up the look of the kit's front end.

[gingerbob]

Aaaannndddd... step 2:

Above is fuselage half with the rear wing-join cut (1 2/3 sixteenths of an inch, or 2.6-ish mm), below is stock part. As you can see I've cut up the small "swoop" between trailing edge and fuselage- I'll be replacing it as part of my wing-root/fillet plastic surgery. I considered trying to save and move it, but this shape is simpler on the Spiteful than on the Spitfire, so I figured starting with sheet plastic would be just as easy, considering how under-developed the kit one is.

It may be wishful thinking, but after cutting the fuselage, I held the wing in place in the new position and it seemed to look much more Spitefulish (apologies to the non-native English speakers among us... and the native ones, for that matter!) You'll just have to trust me on that for the moment.

Still trying to figure out the most elegant way to cut the lower wing part... but running out of other things to do in the meantime!

bob

Edited May 3, 2016 by gingerbob

[Giorgio N]

Now this is some serious surgery ! I'm very curious to see the effect of the new wing position on the model

[gingerbob]

Giorgio, I tried to answer your wish, but I decided it really wasn't worth showing yet. Sorry!

This morning, playing with paper dolls:

This is trying to plan the cuts for the (full span) lower wing part. It has already shown me one problem- the square that is trying to fix the back edge of the gear well- if I cut that much it'll foul the cannon bumps. The area where the radiator sits will be cut away, using the inside of the upper wing panel to give it the recess into the wing.

It isn't quite as scary as it appears, but you can see that it is a fairly complex problem. Last night I had a (possible) Eureka moment when I thought, rather than try to fix the well shape in the plastic, while at the same time trying to make the Attacker well fit (see below), I could perhaps cut more away and then use some thin plastic or metal to re-skin that area, which would make fitting the new well much easier.

Here's a bonus pic showing the difference between the Spiteful/Seafang well (top) and the Attacker one (as done by Trump):

Edited May 4, 2016 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

"Do you think he plans it all out, or just makes it up as he goes along?"

Just to show the reasoning behind my cuts:

As I mentioned, my plan is to cut away the area "in" the radiator bath- the entry will round down to meet the top wing inside, there'll be the core, then the exit will mostly just BE the inside of the top wing part. So, I figured if I could concentrate as many of the gaps and cuts within that area as possible, I'd save myself a lot of trouble and strife.

The left edge of the underlying paper is the approximate centerline. I'll cut the "Leading edge root" free on either side, since they rock forward slightly to fix the taper angle here. Note that the rear edge of this part forms the forward edge of the wheel well until it starts to curve.

I'll have to add some plastic between the wheel wells and I'll also have to make up for the wing moving aft somewhere in there (on NN660 the Airfix under-cowl with intake will do some of this). Here I've just cut down the centerline, which may be what I do, then skin over to fill the recess for the Trumpeter (Spitfire type) intake, fill the gap down the center, and make up for the wing shifting aft. (On the Seafang, with the "Seafire 47 type" intake, that adds a bit of trouble. It isn't awful, but it isn't shaped quite right, either, so this will provide a chance to improve it, perhaps! (The part from the Seafire 47 kit is shaped quite differently, so probably won't work.))

Slightly behind the wheel well is a span-wise cut, and the wing (with wheel well) will move out the necessary amount and rejoin the aft portion, while the central "belly" aft of this cut will remain intact, taking care of the belly and the root portion between the radiators. (Note to self- got to make sure that the local dihedral (or lack thereof) doesn't cause a complication.)

Then there's the slightly angled cut running back from the gear well, through the radiator area. Really it's just the part in front of and entering the radiator housing that I'll need to worry about.

That leaves the "square" I mentioned earlier. I just realized that if I trim the outer edge it'll meet the cut-line inboard of the cannon chutes/bumps, so no worry there- but if I angle it more part of it will disappear into the radiator area. This cut also won't be necessary if I go with Plan B (or is that Plan A Rev.1?) around the wheel well.

Remember my adage- measure a whole bunch of times, cut once- or as little as possible, anyway.

bob

Edited May 4, 2016 by gingerbob

[Giorgio N]

Like your reasoning Bob, although I'm now even less attracted by the idea of buying one of these kits...

[gingerbob]

Meanwhile, back at the fuselage...

Don't be fooled- the curve where wing meets cowling needs to be cleaned up, and I just realized that, since I have to sculpt the fillet anyway, I made life harder for myself by trying to cut on the line. Had I cut in the middle of what'll be fillet, I could be all sloppy-like and hide it underneath.

I also "saved time" by using the Dremel rather than the hand razor-saw, which taught me that I can't cut a very straight line with the Dremel. Still, same rule applies- I purposefully did NOT follow a panel line for the long horizontal cut, so as long as I can get the pieces into alignment (fingers crossed), I just need to fill and blend the seam. Well, it SOUNDS like a simple process...

I think I'll finish cleaning this side up, then take what I've learned and attack the other side later. There's also the "fuselage converting" to do- from pressure XIX to fighter.

I believe that I've discovered that the Airfix XIX nose is a trifle long, but I haven't pinned it down to any one spot, and unless something doesn't work out right with the splice I think I'll be brave and ignore it. Spitfires look better with long noses anyway!

bob

p.s. After the length question, this morning I found myself thinking, "Maybe I should look at the Aeroclub 21 fuselage again..." - and then I remembered that I'd already chopped up the XIX!

Edited May 5, 2016 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

NN660 is beginning to take shape! (taped test-fit):

Those of you wanting to do a full Spiteful will be happy to know that I don't recommend moving the wing root!

bob

[gingerbob]

Well, just wanted to prove I was still working on it... Wheel well correcting, Plan B- or is that "Plan G"?

This was my first attempt at cutting through the Shroud of Guinness (the spirit had long since been liberated by the missus) and it went better than I anticipated for a first try. Holding the skin up to the wing, though, makes me want to try Plan A some more. In reality it'll probably end up being a combination of the two.

I tried to cut both sides at once, using double-sided tape to hold it together (as well as two layers of paper that were guides). All of that was too much for the perhaps feeble knife to get through easily, but even so I could probably use these if I had to.

Back to the laboratory...

Edited May 9, 2016 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

Hello again,

More cuts- wing outer panels from center section (radiator laid in place on one side to suggest area covered by it, but the wings aren't in alignment)

and a bit cut back aft of the cockpit and a slice further, with the idea that I can push the spine down to approximately the level of the "insert" then fair it in, probably by sheeting over with plastic or Guinness-can.

I might refine the technique on the wing a little for the next one, but so far I think I'm on the right track. I cut the section removed from the trailing edge, under the radiator, into some strips that can hopefully be used (with reinforcement) to fill the gap left forward of the radiator, due to moving the wing panel outboard.

bob