Pat C Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Was just about to hack away at the slats of an old Italeri A4M so they could be shown down when I found this pic of the aircraft I was planning to model http://a4skyhawk.org/content/159491-vmat-102-photographer-unknown-g-verver-collection-5937 The slats are up which I don't think I've seen before on a parked aircraft. I understood them to fall down due to gravity so does the pic imply that the slats were pinned up for this bird and if so what would be the rationale? A problem causing asymmetric deployment that was temporarily fixed by pinning them permenantly up maybe? Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnguylander Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 That is odd- The only scooters that had the slats bolted shut that I know of were the Blue angel birds- They would be problematic if they suddenly deployed when flying in tight formation, as it was explained to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McArthur Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 It looks like there is a strap holding the slat closed between the pylons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Pat, I found a discussion of this same question on the ARC website, and I have posted the link below; I think it will help. F-86 and F-100 slats could be pushed closed by hand, and if not disturbed, would usually remain closed until bumped or if the aircraft began moving I found two written references that stated that the Kiwis sometimes held the slats of their Scooters closed with straps when doing maintenance/loading stores, etc. Mike http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=207661 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 The slats should always extend under gravity, any slat that didn't required adjustment asap. Binding slats could be adjusted by standing on the drop tank and kicking the Bejesus out of it. Any stories about them staying up is complete BS. There is a strap for holding them closed, it consists of a clip that slips over the upper trailing edge of the slat crosses over the leading edge and is secured via a pip pin to the under wing jack point. Been there, done that got the badge. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat C Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 Thanks for the help all. I can see the strap now it has been pointed out. Interestingly there are two pics of this aircraft on that site that look to be taken at different times and the slats are up on both occasions. All of the other VMAT-102 birds seem to have them extended as normal. Save me a bit of cutting I suppose although I may think about dropping the flaps instead. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creepy Pete Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I took this pic of a BAe Systems Skyhawk at the Phantom Phinale at Wittmund AB in 2013. You can just make out the strap around the slat on the far right of the pic. Sadly I didn't take a better pic of it. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Here is one with one slat up, no doubt for when they loaded the Bullpup, and the other down: http://a4skyhawk.org/content/buno-154983-va-212-nf-310 Jari 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat C Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 Here is one with one slat up, no doubt for when they loaded the Bullpup, and the other down: http://a4skyhawk.org/content/buno-154983-va-212-nf-310 Jari Ha ha be interesting what comments you would get if you modelled that!Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmig Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I can't speak as to the A-4, never having played with one. But on the Sabre the slats can easily be pushed up or pulled down by hand. I've done it myself just to see what was under there (natural metal area and a bunch of access panels, if anyone is interested). The slats don't really "droop", although that's the term most use. Rather, they extend, and when you pull them out or push them up it feels like they're riding on roller bearings. If you push them up they'll stay up. Here's a pic of a Sabre Mk 6 with one up and one extended. Oh, by the way... if you do model your aircraft with the slats extended, note that it's all a continuous smooth airfoil under the slat. Some kits have moulded a step there for the slat to fit into! Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f4h1phantom Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Here's a picture of the strap used to held the slat in the up position. It is seen from below on a restored argentine A-4B. Net picture. Jorge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Oh, by the way... if you do model your aircraft with the slats extended, note that it's all a continuous smooth airfoil under the slat. Some kits have moulded a step there for the slat to fit into! Bob That comment needs pictures. Now I'm wondering whether the Skyhawk has step there so that the trailing edge of the slat sits flush with the wing upper surface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat C Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 That comment needs pictures. Now I'm wondering whether the Skyhawk has step there so that the trailing edge of the slat sits flush with the wing upper surface? Wez - it puzzled me too but the below I think illustrates what Bob was saying. There is a step if you compare the area with the wing portions either side, but a smooth transition as you go towards the leading edge. Pat http://www.network54.com/Forum/232726/thread/1324076834/A4+Skyhawk+slat+question 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 That comment needs pictures. Now I'm wondering whether the Skyhawk has step there so that the trailing edge of the slat sits flush with the wing upper surface? There is no step at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Wez - it puzzled me too but the below I think illustrates what Bob was saying. There is a step if you compare the area with the wing portions either side, but a smooth transition as you go towards the leading edge. Pat http://www.network54.com/Forum/232726/thread/1324076834/A4+Skyhawk+slat+question Pat, You're a top man, that illustrates it nicely (possibly the best photo I've seen of that), that makes reproducing that area on an F-86, A-4, F4D, B-66, F-100 etc a lot easier. Steve, You replied as I was typing, thanks for confirming that. Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Neat photo- I would have thought there was a step where the trailing edge of the slat met the wing! For the F-86 commenters, I found a great photo of a Sabre with the slats extended that also shows the lack of a definite step, just a gradual tapering from the trailing edge to the leading edge of the slat bay. An added bonus is a good illustration and description of the differences between the Sabre wing types! Mike http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=129670 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) All the Slats I've ever worked on have had this...The concaved slat's rear fits snuggly to the convex wing leading edge.You need a smooth aerodynamic surface between the extended Slat and wing, a step would kill it and dump lift. Edited February 24, 2016 by bzn20 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmig Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Wez - it puzzled me too but the below I think illustrates what Bob was saying. There is a step if you compare the area with the wing portions either side, but a smooth transition as you go towards the leading edge. Reading my first post I see it may be a bit confusing. Maybe this will help clarify what I meant. On the first photo you can see that there is no step on the wing where the back of the slat abuts (nestles in would be an odd but good way to put it)... or if you want to be technical, there may be a step about the thickness of the aluminum skin (maybe .025mm or so in 1/48). Look at the other two photos and you can see how the wings have a prominent step where the slat would retract. In fairness, if you provide the option of extended or retracted slats in a kit there's going to be a step there to fit the retracted slat into, and the smaller the scale the more oversize it would be. Bob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis_C Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Looks that is an area for improvement for kit manufacturers. They can provide either two upper wings or at least separate leading edges to avoid that step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Reading my first post I see it may be a bit confusing. Maybe this will help clarify what I meant. On the first photo you can see that there is no step on the wing where the back of the slat abuts (nestles in would be an odd but good way to put it)... or if you want to be technical, there may be a step about the thickness of the aluminum skin (maybe .025mm or so in 1/48). Look at the other two photos and you can see how the wings have a prominent step where the slat would retract. In fairness, if you provide the option of extended or retracted slats in a kit there's going to be a step there to fit the retracted slat into, and the smaller the scale the more oversize it would be. Bob Bob, I got what you meant right away, although I was surprised because in all of these years, I'd never seen a clear picture of that area on either the F-86, F-100, A-4, F4D or B-66 which all have similar engineering, I'd assumed (wrongly), that there was a slight rebate for the trailing edge of the slat to nestle into to give a flush upper surface. I think my assumption was based upon 1) only ever seeing a kit representation of that area, and 2) the expectation that there was a rebate. The trailing edge of the slat is much thinner than I thought. I only asked for pictures because if I hadn't seen this before, others wouldn't have too. Thanks to you for providing the pictures and Pat for providing the link that showed the Skyhawk slat. Every day is a school day as they say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Check the vortex generators on this A-4: http://navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv62-68/120.htm Jari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmig Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Bob, I got what you meant right away, although I was surprised because in all of these years, I'd never seen a clear picture of that area on either the F-86, F-100, A-4, F4D or B-66 which all have similar engineering, I'd assumed (wrongly), that there was a slight rebate for the trailing edge of the slat to nestle into to give a flush upper surface. I think my assumption was based upon 1) only ever seeing a kit representation of that area, and 2) the expectation that there was a rebate. The trailing edge of the slat is much thinner than I thought. I only asked for pictures because if I hadn't seen this before, others wouldn't have too. Thanks to you for providing the pictures and Pat for providing the link that showed the Skyhawk slat. Every day is a school day as they say! No problem, Wez. It was more for myself that I added the additional pics, as I realized that I hadn't explained it very well, and some might have thought I was referring to the step at the inboard and outboard edges of the slats. A step on the wing - as moulded on most kits - would probably act as a spoiler, disrupt the airflow and kill the lift! And here's an interesting bit of trivia: The RCAF Golden Hawks demonstration team used both hard-wing Sabre Mk 5s, and then slatted-wing Sabre Mk 6s. I've heard that they didn't especially like using the Mk 6s. Although a more maneuverable aircraft, at times their slats would pop at slightly different moments, making it more difficult to hold their positions in unison. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Here are a couple more slat up and down pics: Jari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Here are a couple more slat up and down pics: Jari For me, the interesting thing to note is the lightening holes in the underside of the slat, I wonder if the F-86 and F-100had these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAVY870 Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Look at the state of the main wheel and landing gear, dirty grubs. Never saw an A-4G look that scruffy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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