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RNZAF P-40N-20 NZ3254


MikeR
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Hi everyone, here's a question for the RNZAF in WW2 experts!

I'm currently building a model of NZ3254 using the old 1/72 Aeromaster RNZAF decal sheet. Did this aircraft have the diagonal recognition stripes on it's wings as the Aeromaster sheet doesn't say? I've tried hunting for photos of that aircraft but haven't turned up anything.

Thanks in advance,

Mike. :coolio:

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Hi everyone, here's a question for the RNZAF in WW2 experts!

I'm currently building a model of NZ3254 using the old 1/72 Aeromaster RNZAF decal sheet. Did this aircraft have the diagonal recognition stripes on it's wings as the Aeromaster sheet doesn't say? I've tried hunting for photos of that aircraft but haven't turned up anything.

Thanks in advance,

Mike. :coolio:

Hi Mike,

If you checkout this link from Pete Mossong's site it shows RNZAF P 40-N's with/without the wing ID Stripes at least on the upper wings. Your choice to leave off or put on.

Note the Pacfic Roundels do have white bars (no blue borders)

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/p40_3.html

EDIT Just re read ADF serials, and it makes no mention of NZ3254 going over seas, so may have just served in New Zealand for training purposes, without a photo hard to say wing stripe or not.

I'll check my references on the morning and see if they have anything to add

Regards

Alan

Edited by LDSModeller
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I haven't checked the serial mentioned but there are a lot of very interesting RNZAF P-40 photographs here:-

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/17599/rnzaf-40-pile

Two details of note - the P-40 control stick which appears to be painted in colour very similar to RAF cockpit grey green and the mention of the blue-grey colour replacing brown/dark earth circa March 1943.

Nick

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I haven't checked the serial mentioned but there are a lot of very interesting RNZAF P-40 photographs here:-

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/17599/rnzaf-40-pile

Two details of note - the P-40 control stick which appears to be painted in colour very similar to RAF cockpit grey green and the mention of the blue-grey colour replacing brown/dark earth circa March 1943.

Nick

Thanks, Nick, that's a great link. The "field of dreams" is unbelievable. :)

Cheers,

Bill

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Thanks guys, much appreciated - Occa, great photo!

Hi Mike,

If you checkout this link from Pete Mossong's site it shows RNZAF P 40-N's with/without the wing ID Stripes at least on the upper wings. Your choice to leave off or put on.

Note the Pacfic Roundels do have white bars (no blue borders)

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/p40_3.html

EDIT Just re read ADF serials, and it makes no mention of NZ3254 going over seas, so may have just served in New Zealand for training purposes, without a photo hard to say wing stripe or not.

I'll check my references on the morning and see if they have anything to add

Regards

Alan

Hi Alan, I've tentatively started on painting the model and I have, for the moment, decided to go "with" wings stripes, so I'd love to know what you manage to rustle up! If I remember correctly, the link you've given had a full section on colours and markings a few years ago, but I see that it's now gone:

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/p40col.html

Any idea what happened? :shrug:

I haven't checked the serial mentioned but there are a lot of very interesting RNZAF P-40 photographs here:-

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/17599/rnzaf-40-pile

Two details of note - the P-40 control stick which appears to be painted in colour very similar to RAF cockpit grey green and the mention of the blue-grey colour replacing brown/dark earth circa March 1943.

Nick

Thanks, Nick, that thread's a veritable goldmine! :coolio: It would be great of one of the decal manufacturers would give the RNZAF's ops in the Pacific some more coverage. New Zealand does seem to be in the shadow of the Australian contribution.

I live in (the probably vain) hope that Osprey might do a "Commonwealth P-40 and Kittyhawk Aces of the Pacific" volume focusing specifically on the RAAF's and RNZAF's use of the type. The current Kittyhawk book tries to cover too much, I think.

Mike.

Mike.

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Hi Mike,

Checked my references and after a bit of detective work, I believe I have the photo of NZ3254. A photo and comment in RNZAF The First Decade got me thinking and investigating.

It's one of the colour images on the page link I posted above, but I will post it here again (from Pete Mossong's site).

The only issue is that you cannot see the upper wing to determine if there is a "White diagonal Stripe". All I can suggest is add or not add as you see fit :hmmm::D

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/lsn.jpg

Hope that helps?

Regards

Alan

Edit: I must have been posting about the same time, so did not see your newer paot above

PS: I think Pete is remodelling (no pun intended) his P 40 pages, so as to whether the colours & Marking will be back again ????

Edited by LDSModeller
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Hi Mike,

Checked my references and after a bit of detective work, I believe I have the photo of NZ3254. A photo and comment in RNZAF The First Decade got me thinking and investigating.

It's one of the colour images on the page link I posted above, but I will post it here again (from Pete Mossong's site).

The only issue is that you cannot see the upper wing to determine if there is a "White diagonal Stripe". All I can suggest is add or not add as you see fit :hmmm::D

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/lsn.jpg

Hope that helps?

Regards

Alan

Edit: I must have been posting about the same time, so did not see your newer paot above

PS: I think Pete is remodelling (no pun intended) his P 40 pages, so as to whether the colours & Marking will be back again ????

Hi Alan,

It does indeed, thanks! :thumbsup2: Looking at the link to the archived page that PFlint found, I see that there is the following comment for the P-40N's:

All had the tailplane assembly painted White (There were two slightly differing ways this was done. See drawings G and H) with White fuselage bands, Diagonal striping on earlier deliveries only, (emphasis mine, MR.)

Is there any way to decipher the delivery sequence for them? NZ3254 is at the higher end of the serial group, so it would be interesting to see where the possible "break point" for the wing stripes is. It would be easy to paint over what I've done so far if "54" didn't have them.

Mike.

Edited by MikeR
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Hi Alan,

It does indeed, thanks! :thumbsup2: Looking at the link to the archived page that PFlint found, I see that there is the following comment for the P-40N's:

Is there any way to decipher the delivery sequence for them? NZ3254 is at the higher end of the serial group, so it would be interesting to see where the possible "break point" for the wing stripes is. It would be easy to paint over what I've done so far if "54" didn't have them.

Mike.

Hi Mike,

Deliveries of N's (N-1) began latter end of June 1943 and continued till November 1943 with N-5's, N-15's, N-20's along that timeline.

February 1944 saw more N-20's delivered, which included your aircraft NZ3254. Whether we can count that as a break and classify those in 1943 as early deliveries and those in 1944 as late, according to Pete Mossong's archived page? Later could also mean those aircraft later in the year?

Regards

Alan

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Hmmm. :hmmm: (sound of cogs whirring...)

I think I'll stick my neck out and hypothesise that since the Feb '44 delivery was the last one, then it's quite probable that those aircraft wouldn't have had the wing stripes. Actually, that makes painting the model easier and matches up with how Aeromaster have depicted NZ3254 in their decal sheet. They wouldn't have done that without some basis, but that depends on how accurate the information they were working from was, which is the core reason I made my query. Looks like they had better info than I first thought!

Anyway thanks again, Alan, much appreciated! :thumbsup2:

Mike. :)

Edited by MikeR
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Hi guys. Just to add my two pence worth to this thread.

Firstly, a note regarding my site..for the past two and a half years, I've been unable to get into the files, and upgrade them! When the Hyperscale files were migrated to a new server, both myself and Brett Green found we were unable to get into several of the sub-folders! He has made several attempts to get this corrected, so far without any success...

During this 'downtime' I have been rebuilding the complete site with larger and better photos, better artwork, updated information etc. and have a major section covering the RNZAF's Corsairs and further 'Islands servicing' articles ready to publish when I am able to add them!

I must have another 'chat' with Brett to see if he has had any response from the IT gurus.

Mike R. I was the main source for Aeromaster's 'Kiwi' sheets. NZ3254 did not have the wing ID stripes.

Cheers,

Pete M. :locked::sorry:

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Hi Pete!

Glad to hear that all your hard work isn't going to be pulled into internet obscurity and thanks for confirming that NZ3254 didn't have wing ID stripes. :thumbsup: I hope I haven't accidently given any offence in the course of my queries.

If so, I apologise. :blush:

Mike. :)

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Hi Pete!

Glad to hear that all your hard work isn't going to be pulled into internet obscurity and thanks for confirming that NZ3254 didn't have wing ID stripes. :thumbsup: I hope I haven't accidently given any offence in the course of my queries.

If so, I apologise. :blush:

Mike. :)

Hi Mike. No offense taken mate. I'd just like to be able to update my stuff after several years of stagnation there! :wall:

Cheers,

Pete M.

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A couple of RNZAF pilots, who flew P 40's in the SW Pacific area, Alex Horn (Wings Over The Pacific) and Bryan Cox (Too Young To Die) mention in their books that the stripes were for aircraft ID recognition. It appears that the P 40's at a distance bore a similar plane form resemblance to a "Certain Japanese Fighter". It would appear that these markings were on US aircraft also to aid recognition. The stripes of course didn't always guarantee you wouldn't be shot at by your Allies, as a few RNZAF pilots found out to their disgust <_<

I still haven't quite figured out exactly which Japanese fighter plane was the "Certain type" :shrug::lol:

Regards

Alan

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A couple of RNZAF pilots, who flew P 40's in the SW Pacific area, Alex Horn (Wings Over The Pacific) and Bryan Cox (Too Young To Die) mention in their books that the stripes were for aircraft ID recognition. It appears that the P 40's at a distance bore a similar plane form resemblance to a "Certain Japanese Fighter". It would appear that these markings were on US aircraft also to aid recognition. The stripes of course didn't always guarantee you wouldn't be shot at by your Allies, as a few RNZAF pilots found out to their disgust <_<

I still haven't quite figured out exactly which Japanese fighter plane was the "Certain type" :shrug::lol:

Regards

Alan

Hi Alan. It was the JAAF's Kawasaki Ki61 Hien (Tony) ..inline engine, and at a distance, a similar wing shape. mainly based in New Guinea, but some apparently ended up at Rabaul and a few other Japanese island bases.

Cheers,

Pete M.

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Hi guys. Just to add my two pence worth to this thread.

Firstly, a note regarding my site..for the past two and a half years, I've been unable to get into the files, and upgrade them! When the Hyperscale files were migrated to a new server, both myself and Brett Green found we were unable to get into several of the sub-folders! He has made several attempts to get this corrected, so far without any success...

During this 'downtime' I have been rebuilding the complete site with larger and better photos, better artwork, updated information etc. and have a major section covering the RNZAF's Corsairs and further 'Islands servicing' articles ready to publish when I am able to add them!

I must have another 'chat' with Brett to see if he has had any response from the IT gurus.

Mike R. I was the main source for Aeromaster's 'Kiwi' sheets. NZ3254 did not have the wing ID stripes.

Cheers,

Pete M. :locked::sorry:

Pete,

The sooner it is up and running the better mate, I haven't found a better source of information nor one as well presented.

Take care

Andy

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A couple of RNZAF pilots, who flew P 40's in the SW Pacific area, Alex Horn (Wings Over The Pacific) and Bryan Cox (Too Young To Die) mention in their books that the stripes were for aircraft ID recognition. It appears that the P 40's at a distance bore a similar plane form resemblance to a "Certain Japanese Fighter". It would appear that these markings were on US aircraft also to aid recognition. The stripes of course didn't always guarantee you wouldn't be shot at by your Allies, as a few RNZAF pilots found out to their disgust <_<

I still haven't quite figured out exactly which Japanese fighter plane was the "Certain type" :shrug::lol:

Regards

Alan

There was a combined VMF-222, VMF-223, VMF-216, VF-33 and VF-40 sweep against Rabaul on 17 Dec 1943 in which two squadrons of RNZAF P-40s participated. One of the VMF Corsair pilots Bob Bragdon was late over the target area, found his guns weren't firing and was egressing when he was fired at and found six "Tonys" pursuing him. They "pursued" him all the way out of the target area and for 65 miles before he was able to outpace them but his description of them is interesting:-

"They were a vivid California blue, shiny with white tails. They had white diagonals on the wings and white longitudinal stripes on the fuselage extending from the rear of the cockpit to the tail assembly. The meat balls were indistinct, it was difficult to make them out against their blue background. Roundels were definitely on the fuselage and possibly on the upper wing surfaces."

Looking at the colour photograph posted by Occa above it seems those "Tonys" might have been something else . . .

Nick

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Hi Alan. It was the JAAF's Kawasaki Ki61 Hien (Tony) ..inline engine, and at a distance, a similar wing shape. mainly based in New Guinea, but some apparently ended up at Rabaul and a few other Japanese island bases.

Cheers,

Pete M.

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for that information. Have been wanting to do a Ki61 , so one that flew against the RNZAF would be cool

Regards

Alan

There was a combined VMF-222, VMF-223, VMF-216, VF-33 and VF-40 sweep against Rabaul on 17 Dec 1943 in which two squadrons of RNZAF P-40s participated. One of the VMF Corsair pilots Bob Bragdon was late over the target area, found his guns weren't firing and was egressing when he was fired at and found six "Tonys" pursuing him. They "pursued" him all the way out of the target area and for 65 miles before he was able to outpace them but his description of them is interesting:-

"They were a vivid California blue, shiny with white tails. They had white diagonals on the wings and white longitudinal stripes on the fuselage extending from the rear of the cockpit to the tail assembly. The meat balls were indistinct, it was difficult to make them out against their blue background. Roundels were definitely on the fuselage and possibly on the upper wing surfaces."

Looking at the colour photograph posted by Occa above it seems those "Tonys" might have been something else . . .

Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for poting that information - very Interesting.

Circa April 1943 the RNZAF began receiving P 40K's. The earlier/earliest shipment aircraft were camouflaged in RAF TLS similar/same colours the P 40E's arrived in. See attached image (top most P 40)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Yff6LKWML1Mk1JTTItaHhzQzg/view?usp=sharing

A couple of years ago on RNZAF ProBoards, there was a discussion in which it was revealed that these camouflaged K's prior to departure to the forward areas had the Dark Earth overpainted in NZ Sea Blue Grey. If you can imagine the Dark Earth on the K profile as being NZ Sea Blue Grey. The RNZAF Roundels would have been the same as on the profile, so probably would have been difficult to make out against the NZ Sea Blue Grey. The Red "Meat ball" was only an inch across dimension wise.

It's very possible that the Marine Corsair pilot Bob Bragdon saw these K's, as the NZ Sea Blue Grey depending on fading may have looked much like/similar to California Blue.

The only caveat I put to this is this, I don't know if the RNZAF P 40's especially the Camouflaged K's would have had the white tails at that time.

Regards

Alan

Edited by LDSModeller
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Hi Mike. No offense taken mate. I'd just like to be able to update my stuff after several years of stagnation there! :wall:

Cheers,

Pete M.

Hi Pete,

No probs, glad I didn't! It's one of the hazards of the 'net I've fallen foul of a few times - accidently hacking somebody off when I didn't mean to. :banghead:

I do hope that you manage to get your stuff updated, as Silver Fox wrote it's an invaluable resource. :coolio:

Hi Nick,

........................

A couple of years ago on RNZAF ProBoards, there was a discussion in which it was revealed that these camouflaged K's prior to departure to the forward areas had the Dark Earth overpainted in NZ Sea Blue Grey. If you can imagine the Dark Earth on the K profile as being NZ Sea Blue Grey. The RNZAF Roundels would have been the same as on the profile, so probably would have been difficult to make out against the NZ Sea Blue Grey. The Red "Meat ball" was only an inch across dimension wise.

It's very possible that the Marine Corsair pilot Bob Bragdon saw these K's, as the NZ Sea Blue Grey depending on fading may have looked much like/similar to California Blue.

The only caveat I put to this is this, I don't know if the RNZAF P 40's especially the Camouflaged K's would have had the white tails at that time.

Regards

Alan

I smell another RNZAF P-40 project for me in the future, I've been thinking about getting Sword's P-40K-15 model for quite some time...... :evil_laugh:

I think this has been discussed a few times before, but I gather that PRU Blue can be used as a substitute for RNZAF Sea Blue Grey?: LINK.

BLUES:

(NZ) Blue Sea Grey: BALM S13-934. 33B/N.118 ( Fs.35053 > 35109 when fresh - it apparently varied a lot from batch to batch! Weathered to Fs.35164 > 35177. Close to RAF PRU Blue Bs.636). Upper colour on Ventura, Corsair, Hudson, P-40, Harvard, C-60. Has also been called Ocean Blue and Pacific Blue, but neither is the 'Official' name for this colour.

I see that it also quotes Fs.35164 as a match when weathered, which means Humbrol 144 or 96 could also be used. I've seen both colours mentioned on the IPMS Stockholm colour charts as a match for that particular FS number.

Mike. :)

Edited by MikeR
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I smell another RNZAF P-40 project for me in the future, I've been thinking about getting Sword's P-40K-15 model for quite some time...... :evil_laugh:

I think this has been discussed a few times before, but I gather that PRU Blue can be used as a substitute for RNZAF Sea Blue Grey?: LINK.

I see that it also quotes Fs.35164 as a match when weathered, which means Humbrol 144 or 96 could also be used. I've seen both colours mentioned on the IPMS Stockholm colour charts as a match for that particular FS number.

Mike. :)

Hi Mike,

Left this for a few days hoping Pete might stop by and post.

Looking at this profile off Pete's website, looking at an RNZAF Ventura in NZ Blue Sea Grey, you can see the PRU Blue similarity

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/Images/rb34c.jpg

With respect to the FS numbers, from memory in reading previous posts by Pete, he visited the Rukuhia aircraft open storage site with a a FS Standard deck and physically measured the colours against the closest FS number. Bear in mind that this would have been some years after WWII, where the aircraft had sat out in the open and the paint faded more than would have been allowed if in service.

With this in mind the faded colours Pete quotes an FS number for, may not be a proper colour match for what it was in service. This would also affect the faded Roundels (electric blue et al) which probably are far more faded than allowed in service.

Rukhia - P 40 in this shot had original DuPont paint TLS and you can make out a blueish grey colour next to the yellow lettering, quite probable NZ Blue Sea Grey over paint -note also the US Star in Insignia Blue with remains of RNZAF Roundel blue (really faded)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/4985209589_999e02fba1_b.jpg

Note Black/White photo - P 40 in foreground and Roundel on wing very faded- note P 40 ahead with US Star/bar

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/the_hairy_dwarf/media/02-08-08-270.jpg.html

Here is a Pv-1 very possible in NZ Blue Sea Grey, going by lower paint demarcation line - note the fuselage roundel -faded, and compare under wing roundel

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/the_hairy_dwarf/media/02-08-08-431.jpg.html

As a caveat Pete also had the oppertunity to measure Roundels under the wings of aircraft like F4U Corsairs where the sun and weather did not have much of an impact. The Roundel Blue was more like the newest Ventura Corsair roundels decals, Dark Blue much like the PV-1 link above.

Hope that helps's you some? Of course Pete can come along and completely refute my comments in some way or totally :D

Regards

Alan

Edited by LDSModeller
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Hi Alan,

Sorry for the late reply, but I was working and didn't have computer much time! The joys of working nights, I guess... the extra money helps, but it don't half play havoc with your free time! :hanging:

Yep, what you've posted is a massive help! :thumbsup2:

I think a Sword P-40K-15 will be bought in the near future! :wicked:

Mike. :)

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