1:72 CMR de Havilland Sea Venom FAW.53

[Navy Bird]

Strangeness, Part 1:

 

Have a look at the pictures inside the balloon on the right which show the assembly of the instrument panel. Note that the resin piece that supports the photoetch, marked as part number 20, is thicker on the right hand side. When the photoetch is applied to this area, parts PE6 and PE7 (I'm doing scheme "D") form a box with what looks like a sight of some kind on top. This box protrudes into the cockpit from the main instrument panel. OK, so far so good. Except...

 

Have a look at part number 20 over on the left hand side of this diagram, where it is shown how to mount the panel in the fuselage. Note that the thicker portion part 20 protrudes away from the panel towards the front of the aircraft. This is exactly the opposite of how the part is depicted in the balloon.

 

 

Guess what? The resin piece is cast as shown on the left of the diagram, not as shown on the right. Test fitting shows that the assembled instrument panel will not fit properly with the two fuselage halves. If it had been cast as shown in the balloon, it would fit just fine.

 

Someone at CMR flipped one of their coordinate axes and made a master that was a mirror image of what they wanted. OK, simple mistake, I've flipped one or two of my coordinate axes before. Did anyone try to build this kit before it went on the market?

 

This is an easy fix, I'll just cut the panel into two pieces, one thin and one thick. Each will mount to their respective fuselage half and Bob's your uncle. (Actually, Bob is my brother-in-law but who cares).

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. Everything in this cockpit is black. Very Goth.

PPS. Test fitting shows that, pretty much, nothing fits well up front - cockpit, instrument panel, bulkhead, front wheel well. Oh well, I am modeller. Have grinder.

[Beard]

Oh well, I am modeller. Have grinder.

And a mask, I hope.

I'm used to making mistakes due to my own stupidity but when a the manufacturer makes a mistake like that.

[Procopius]

PPS. Test fitting shows that, pretty much, nothing fits well up front - cockpit, instrument panel, bulkhead, front wheel well.

Oh...good?

[Navy Bird]

On 2/14/2016 at 21:51, Procopius said:

Oh...good?

 

Wait till you see the rudder pedals. Now them's funny!

 

Cheers,

Bill

[NAVY870]

Bill silly question but would you require some cockpit shots of 907?

She's an earlier mod state than 895 but the main bits are the same and she's a lot

more complete.

and thanks to my skill, deft touch and above all modesty the lights work

https://www.facebook.com/1510750749175428/videos/1596356000614902/

[Duncan B]

Great stuff Bill, this is why I waited to build my NF3 (so some other sucker could find all the pitfalls first ).

Duncan B

[Martian]

We all have boundless confidence that you will sort out the fit issues Bill!

Martin

[moaning dolphin]

A fine choice for the next project, I like these builds where we also get a history of the real thing, very informative. I shall be making myself comfortable over the next couple of months. Looking forward to seeing this build up.

Crack on!

Bob ( not your Uncle or BiL!)

[Navy Bird]

On 2/15/2016 at 03:13, NAVY870 said:

Bill silly question but would you require some cockpit shots of 907?

She's an earlier mod state than 895 but the main bits are the same and she's a lot

more complete.

and thanks to my skill, deft touch and above all modesty the lights work

https://www.facebook.com/1510750749175428/videos/1596356000614902/

 

Great stuff, thanks! An added benefit is we can hear you speak in that lovely accent! When I saw the video's title about "powering up the Sea Venom" I thought really? Inside the museum? Thinking of course that you were going to power up the jet engine! Silly me.

 

I'll post some photos of the cockpit as I've built it so far, just following CMR's instructions. I think it looks pretty close to your video, and the other photos I've managed to steal, er, peruse from the Internet.

 

By the way, photoetch part PE16 went "Zing!" Judging by its acceleration, terminal velocity, and escape vector the last time I saw it, I think it went to your museum, Steve. Could you please have a look around? Thanks.

 

On 2/15/2016 at 04:57, martin hale said:

We all have boundless confidence that you will sort out the fit issues Bill!

Martin

 

In addition to the grinder, I found some chisels! It's been a long time since I used a hammer on a model...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Ascoteer]

Looking at the video really brings home to me how pre-historic were some of the cockpits I was forced to populate during my career.

I mean, dear gods! we had the same blind flying panel in the Dominie in the late 1990s some 40 years after the Sea Venom entered service!

[Navy Bird]

I've got an interesting idea - how about I actually show some modelling in this thread? I realise we're closing in on 40 posts, and I haven't done anything yet. Yikes!

 

Believe it or not, I have been working on the Sea Venom, I just haven't posted any photos yet (other than a few to show the contents of the box). To refresh your memory, here is one of those photos again. If you look real close you can see that the cockpit tub and both ejection seats are cast as one piece:

 

 

I mentioned some fit issues earlier, based on test-fitting the parts. Because of this, there was a fair amount of sanding and more test-fitting before I was ready to start painting. The cockpit tub had to be reduced in width before I could close the fuselage halves around it, and that is not typically a problem with CMR kits. (Aires, yes, but not CMR.) However, this may not be the fault of CMR as it's possible that I sanded the mating surfaces of the two fuselage halves more than I should have. Although I did take quite a bit off the tub...

 

In any event, after things were painted up, I found that I again could not close up the fuselage - this was fixed by removing the paint on the outer edges of the tub. I guess I had sanded things to a very tight fit! She fits together now though.

 

I followed the colour call-outs in the instruction booklet for the cockpit and ejection seats. Pretty standard stuff here, black on black on black with the only real colour coming from the seat cushions, etc. I used Tamiya NATO Black for the cockpit tub, and Gunze Flat Black for the ejection seat frames. There is a significant difference between these two which is readily discernible by eye, but not so much by my camera. I gave these components a wash with MIG Stone Grey to give it a lived-in look, and then applied a ton of tiny photoetch - and that's just for the harnesses! My goodness, that's a lot of straps - I went back and checked my Scimitar build and it looks quite similar. Whatever, it certainly "makes" the cockpit - without it this would be a pretty bland area.

 

 

 

I left off the yellow and black striped handles (there's one between the crew's legs and of course one on top of the seat) since I'm pretty sure I'd knock them off during the rest of the build. Same for the control column - I'll add that stuff later.

 

I've got some additional detail painting to do in the pit, and on the fuselage sidewalls. Speaking of the sidewalls, CMR provide some photoetch for those areas, but not a lot. Just some very thin consoles, and a couple of small wheels on the port side.

 

I cut the instrument panel in two like I said I would. Here are the two pieces with the photoetch instruments applied:

 

 

I might try to put a drop of Future in each one of the instrument dials - but then I might not. They are very small, and I'd probably muck it up. The box-like radar section on the right has a piece that looks like a cross-hair sight on top of it. I will have to space this box away from the nominal instrument panel location in order for that "sight" to clear the coaming. Unless the coaming shouldn't be there - I've seen some photos that kind sorta look like that. Steve, what's right? Also, that is a radar display on that box, right?

 

Now I know what you've all been waiting for - the rudder pedals! CMR provide both pedals attached to a crossbar so that you can attach them as one piece. Nice idea. Now I'm not an expert, but I think the guy driving the airplane is on the left, and I think he's the only guy that gets to play with the rudder pedals. And even if the guy on the right did have a reason to use them, he'd have his own set. I'm baffled as to why CMR have designed the kit so that each member of the crew gets one rudder pedal each:

 

 

Let's just call this Strangeness, Part 2.

 

Perhaps I received the 1:48 scale version of the rudder pedals? I don't think so, since there are several obviously 1:72 scale parts on the same pour stub. Very strange indeed. I will either have to leave them off or scratch-build something. Although I will admit to laughing out loud at this incredible goof.

 

The top of the nose wheel well comes between the two forward sections of the cockpit floor, and a bulge on top of the well that accommodates the retracted nose wheel ends up right at the front of the seats. I had to "open up" the space between the two forward sections of the floor so the wheel well would fit between them.

 

CMR would have you glue the nose well to the port fuselage, then somehow slide the cockpit into place and close up the fuselage. This can be done, but it isn't easy. Being the anti-social rebel that I am, I ain't gonna do it that way. It's very easy to put the cockpit in first (it has very precise locators), and then the wheel well. That way you also have a much better chance of having things align properly.

 

I'll be spending most of tomorrow with my new grandson, so not much modelling I'm afraid. Peace, love, and the Beatles.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Procopius]

Now I'm not an expert, but I think the guy driving the airplane is on the left, and I think he's the only guy that gets to play with the rudder pedals.

The Royal Navy was very big on teamwork.

[NAVY870]

Some reference matireal

WZ.907

Pilots seat

Port console & throttle box

Instrument panel

Gunsight, accelerometer and warning lights

Same

Collimator and VHF homing indicator (Same thing in 895 excepts it has UHF homing)

Collimator bracket swung out, 895 doesnt have the small panel behind the big brown cables.

AI-17 CRT

Observers console , ignore the side panel with the box marked "Beacon note" 895 has a different set up.

895's panel looks like this one I restored for WZ.897

Behind the seats

That should keep you out of mischief for a while

[Graeme H]

imgurl[/url

Steve, there is always 868 at the Sid Beck Museum that could do with your magic touch

[NAVY870]

N4-904 868/NW is the second Ikara misslle development bird, the other being

my current resto WZ.897.

904 did all the development work with the Ikara's guidance system with a Ikara fin

mounted under the starboard boom.

897 did all the development for the torpedo release gear, theres a video here

http://aso.gov.au/titles/sponsored-films/ikara-weapon-thrower/clip1/#

897 makes her appearance around the 1 minute mark.

And yes I would like to spend some time with her

[Fritag]

Now them is what I call ejection seats

I'm a fan of the painted belts that CMR provide - although IIRC if you're a bit clumsy with bending them there's a danger the paint can flake off (I don't think that clumsy applies to you Bill ). I know that some folks think the painted etch belts sit a bit rigidly but, to my eyes at any rate, one look at your seats just shows how good they look when used properly.

Excellent painting - the grey wash works well against the black.

Putting to one side some oddities like the mirror image instrument panel and fit issues (no drama for a master like you Bill - rather just something to keep you on your toes during the build )- I think these CMR resin kits are the business.

Steve

PS. I don't think that the dials need improving with future - I think the risk/reward ratio is against it. Now I've said that you'll do it and it'll look fabulous........

Edited February 16, 2016 by Fritag

[giemme]

I'm a bit late in joining the party, but hopefully still in time to catch up properly

Great start with cockpit and seats I agree with Fritag's comment about seat belts (although I'm admittedly one that prefers to make seat belts out of lead foil ... )

Your ability and NAVY870 support are going to make this thread and model real stunners!

Ciao

[Martian]

Nice seats Bill!

Martin

[hacker]

Just caught up to this ...Well well Bill back in the saddle again lol

[Navy Bird]

On 2/16/2016 at 00:33, NAVY870 said:

Some reference matireal

<snip>

That should keep you out of mischief for a while

 

You're evil, aren't you? There's no other explanation! Seriously, thanks for these. They're better than any I found searching the web, and they're probably hiding in plain sight on your Facebook page. All right then, some comments and questions:

 

Pilot's Seat - I think you need more straps in your harness. Is this the same seat that was used in the Sea Vixen? MB Mk.4 was it?

 

Port Console - Good photo, CMR has captured this fairly well. Both the grey and black wheels are provided in PE, along with the rather small console just ahead of the throttle. The throttle box itself is cast as part of the port fuselage half, but I have to get out my magnifying glass to see it. Especially when everything is black except for that one grey wheel. It shows up rather well.

 

Instrument panel - The CMR panel is quite close in appearance to your photo. CMR also provide an alternate panel which must have been for one of the other marks. It's quite different. I'll bet it was pretty flying at night with the panel all lit up!

 

Gunsight, Accelerometer, and Warning Lights - CMR provide this part in resin, but it doesn't have the volume meter dial on the right, nor the line out and headphone jack right below. In the instructions, CMR ask you to scratch build the combiner glass.

 

Collimator, VHS Homing Indicator - This is where CMR deviate from your aircraft. The collimator is not provided in the kit. The VHS Homing Indicator is what I've been calling the "cross-hair sight" on top of the radar box. It's even at an angle like your photo. However, since the collimator is not provided, CMR have moved the radar box (with the CRT) up to fill the space normally taken up by the collimator and cables. This is what caused the issue I mentioned where the VHS Homing Indicator, as I've now learned to call it, interferes with the coaming. The big question is: was there ever a configuration that didn't have the collimator? Or do I need to scratch one?

 

AI-17 - CMR got this just right, even the orange phosphors on the CRT. They just have it in the wrong position.

 

Observer's Console - CMR provide this in PE, and it's long and skinny. It was scored so that you can precisely bend it at the right position to make the vertical console at the front. There is a single box on the sidewall, but it doesn't resemble anything shown in your photos although it will probably make do. The cables are cast into the sidewall, and I still need to make them look silver.

 

Behind The Seats - There is a lot of detail cast on top of the fuselage halves immediately behind the cockpit. This will be underneath the rear canopy. I think it will look quite "busy" after some detail painting and a wash.

 

On 2/16/2016 at 03:23, Fritag said:

Now them is what I call ejection seats

I'm a fan of the painted belts that CMR provide - although IIRC if you're a bit clumsy with bending them there's a danger the paint can flake off (I don't think that clumsy applies to you Bill ). I know that some folks think the painted etch belts sit a bit rigidly but, to my eyes at any rate, one look at your seats just shows how good they look when used properly.

Excellent painting - the grey wash works well against the black.

Putting to one side some oddities like the mirror image instrument panel and fit issues (no drama for a master like you Bill - rather just something to keep you on your toes during the build )- I think these CMR resin kits are the business.

Steve

PS. I don't think that the dials need improving with future - I think the risk/reward ratio is against it. Now I've said that you'll do it and it'll look fabulous........

 

Thanks, Steve. I've had the paint flake off PE belts before, but it's always the result of over-bending. If you get your bends and folds right the first time, without having to straighten out and try again, they work pretty well. It boils down to planning, measuring, and then bending.

 

Another trick I've done is to begin by gluing just the first attachment point, say, the portion of the belt at the top of the backrest. Once that is good and dry, work your way down the belt in steps. Add a small drop of PE to the belt using the tip of a scalpel, and then press that against the seat. Repeat as you go down the length of the belt making sure the glue is dry before moving to the next step. This way you can make sure the belt is in contact with the seat - nothing is worse than seat belts that defy gravity and are floating a few scale inches away from the backrest that they're supposed to be lying on.

 

And always try to be as random as possible with the placement of the belts. That's one thing I don't like about most resin seats with the belts cast in - if you're using more than one seat, the lay of the belts shouldn't look exactly the same on both seats. Some manufacturers are getting smart now, selling seats in packages of two where the belts are different.

 

I agree with you about CMR resin kits, don't get me wrong. This is the first one I've had where there has been any issue at all really. That is why it's surprised me so much.

 

On 2/16/2016 at 07:14, hacker said:

Just caught up to this ...Well well Bill back in the saddle again lol

 

Yikes! Was that Country or Western music? I think my ear drums exploded, but at least my head didn't (which would have been the case with Slim Whitman's 'Indian Love Call.')

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Ascoteer]

Bill,

Venoms were initially fitted with Mk1 seats and later with Mk2.

I would imagine the Sea Venom (being later than the Venom) had the Mk2.

On these early seats there were seperate seat and para harnesses.

IIRC the Mk4 was the first to have a semi-combined seat and para harness (hence less individual straps).

The Mk9 was the first to have a combined harness.

[Brandy]

Another very educational and interesting build. I'll be following along to learn a few things!

Ian

[NAVY870]

You're evil, aren't you? - Whats your point?

All right then, some comments and questions:

Pilot's Seat - I think you need more straps in your harness. Is this the same seat that was used in the Sea Vixen? MB Mk.4 was it?

I have the right amount of straps, so does CMR but they made them the same colour, should be 4 blue ones for the seat and 4 beige

ones for the parachute. The seats are Martin Baker MK-4's purpose built for the Sea Venom, they are designated MK-4A & MK-4A1.

Port Console - Good photo, CMR has captured this fairly well. Both the grey and black wheels are provided in PE, along with the rather small console just ahead of the throttle. The throttle box itself is cast as part of the port fuselage half, but I have to get out my magnifying glass to see it. Especially when everything is black except for that one grey wheel. It shows up rather well.

They did all right here

Instrument panel - The CMR panel is quite close in appearance to your photo. CMR also provide an alternate panel which must have been for one of the other marks. It's quite different. I'll bet it was pretty flying at night with the panel all lit up!

The other panels are for the FAW.21 & FAW.22. The 53 was based on the 21 but was very different internally.

Gunsight, Accelerometer, and Warning Lights - CMR provide this part in resin, but it doesn't have the volume meter dial on the right, nor the line out and headphone jack right below. In the instructions, CMR ask you to scratch build the combiner glass.

CMR just did the gunsight, the items you call "headphone jacks " are the generator and hydraulic flow warning lights, the "volume meter" is the accelerometer. You'll need two lenses on the gun sight, one clear and one shaded.

Collimator, VHS Homing Indicator - This is where CMR deviate from your aircraft. The collimator is not provided in the kit. The VHS Homing Indicator is what I've been calling the "cross-hair sight" on top of the radar box. It's even at an angle like your photo. However, since the collimator is not provided, CMR have moved the radar box (with the CRT) up to fill the space normally taken up by the collimator and cables. This is what caused the issue I mentioned where the VHS Homing Indicator, as I've now learned to call it, interferes with the coaming. The big question is: was there ever a configuration that didn't have the collimator? Or do I need to scratch one?

The collimator is there its just one the etch seat and is pretty well useless. I hadnt noticed before but they have totally missed the panel above the crt and have missed everything below it as well. I'll find some pics.

AI-17 - CMR got this just right, even the orange phosphors on the CRT. They just have it in the wrong position.

Observer's Console - CMR provide this in PE, and it's long and skinny. It was scored so that you can precisely bend it at the right position to make the vertical console at the front. There is a single box on the sidewall, but it doesn't resemble anything shown in your photos although it will probably make do. The cables are cast into the sidewall, and I still need to make them look silver.

They've buggered up a few things here but I'd hope being very small and very black in there nobody would notice!

Behind The Seats - There is a lot of detail cast on top of the fuselage halves immediately behind the cockpit. This will be underneath the rear canopy. I think it will look quite "busy" after some detail painting and a wash.

Edited February 17, 2016 by NAVY870

[NAVY870]

Finger trouble!

Edited February 17, 2016 by NAVY870

[Navy Bird]

Hi mates,

 

We have a bit of progress on the Sea Venom. I apologize in advance for the lousy photos, but black on black cockpits are just plain non-photogenic! I mounted the split instrument panel to each half of the fuselage:

 

 

 

You can see that I added a spare piece of painted PE to the starboard side, right above the radar CRT display. This is entirely fictitious, but looks better than nothing. Come to think of it, I should do the same to the port side. (Edit - done.) The radar has been moved down and protrudes into the cockpit a bit, in my attempt to duplicate what I see in Steve's photos. The collimator unit has yet to be made, but when it is I will add it later. I expect that the collimator, ejection seat handles, and the control stick will all be added very near to the end of the build. Otherwise I'll keep knocking the buggers off.

 

Steve explained to me what the collimator actually is, and I'd like to share it with you in the interests of aviation technology mentoring:

"The collimator looks like a periscope but it's an early form of head up display. It puts radar images up onto the gunsight, the entire bracket it sits on swings across to sit behind the sight."

 

Cool, eh?

 

The cockpit assembly, front bulkhead, and front wheel well were added next. This part of the build reminded me of a short-run model, as you have to be real careful to ensure that all of these components align correctly, as there aren't very many positive guides.

 

 

The next part is always one of my favourite parts of scale modelling - I get to play "how much weight can we cram into the nose so we don't have a tail-sitter?"

 

Sometimes CMR tell you how many grams are required, but they didn't in this case. I'll take me time and tape the fuselage, wings, booms, and tail together and then use the location of the main gear legs as my fulcrum point. I'll start adding weight until I get a good, hefty drop in the nose relative to the fulcrum. I don't think this kit will be too bad, but you never know.

 

(My 1:72 PB4Y-1 Liberator took almost 90 grams before she sat on her legs. She's still sitting, too - right in the middle of my display case. I half expected that the gear legs would bend or break or splay out by now, but she looks good!)

 

I'll be back as soon as I figure all this out. Once the weight is in, the fuselage can be closed up and we can add wings, booms, tails - all that fun stuff. Ta for now!

 

Cheers,

Bill