Mountain goat Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) Hi all, I 'm hoping someone can clear something up I've been wondering about for ages. So, in my display case I'm keen to present my models along with different types, mostly in twos or threes, on diorama-ish bases. For the contrast you see? Now one of the reasons I like NATO subjects from the 1960s to 1980s is the diversity offered by NATO air bases during this time. Because when planes from different air forces weren't involved in one or the other exercise or deployment hosted by another country, chances were they could be found, at any one time, on a fairly random air base 'somewhere in Europe' for purposes of lunch or booze. Or something more professional. I don't know. Like here. THE QUESTION: Were such visits also common in the Warsaw Pact? Say I'd make a Warsaw Pact-era Hungarian MiG-21bis and a Czechoslovak one (or any other Warsaw Pact-nationality for that matter) and park them next to each other - would that be a realistic proposition? I'm not talking about an air show context by the way, but an everyday boring work day situation. Which WP air forces visited others and why did they or why did they not? And did Soviet forces in a country visit air bases of country itself (Poland, GDR, Hungary)? And then what about Non-aligned/ Neutral Countries? Did Finnish MiGs ever go for a short Swedish meat balls trip? I think you know what I'm getting at now. Thanks in advance! Jay Edited February 2, 2016 by Mountain goat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldeagle Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 See what you can find out about exercises at R.A.F.Machrihanish.When I was stationed there,we had a very interesting exercise with Turkish Transalls and Royal Iranian and Pakistani Air Force C130s sharing the airfield.We also Canadian Arguses and Dutch Atlantiques sharing on other occasions,when Nimrods would pop in to visit.Of course ,the aircraft types may be a bit on the large side! Bill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldeagle Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Sorry,I have re-read your query,and have realised that you are looking for more casual encounters.How about a 23 Squadron Phantom taxi-ing past a Swedish Saab105 at Wattisham.That seemed unusual when two of the Saabs visited. Bill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Most RAF airfields had a Visiting Aircraft Section, so to answer the first part of your question, yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain goat Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the info - but I was actually loking for info on Warsaw Pact aircraft and bases - so have slightly edited the post in the interest of clarification. Jay Edited February 2, 2016 by Mountain goat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ya-gabor Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 At an airshow it could have been, that is to have Czech MiG-21 standing next to a Hungarian. But have to add that I have not seen such event in person. At Taszar AB back in 1991 or 92 the Czech already had the latest birds with them: the new MiG-29 and the Su-25. As to joint training on a normal service day. Well there were some visits, but it could have been a big joint exercise like some of the War Pac trainings. Very little if at all remains from these visits. As to the Russians. They had their own bases so if there was any joint training they would fly from there. Any courtesy visits were mainly by generals visiting the other side and “inspecting” any hardware specially displayed, usually with different armament laid out in front of the planes. We did have Spangdahlen based F-16’s standing next to Russian MiG-29C’s (9-13) at Kecskemet AB next to them Hungarian MiG-21 and MiG-23 somewhere in 90 or 91. It was only due to the perseverance of the then was US Military Attaché lady assigned to Budapest. There was no flying just getting friendly. Swedish Viggens did visit Papa AFB several times to perform joint training but mostly flying in each others trainer aircraft. Papa at the time still had MiG-21 bis fighters. It was fun to get a closer look at the Viggen. Austrian Drakens also visited the base. But to have MiG-21’s Czechoslovak and Hungarian I don’t remember, but it doesn’t mean a thing . . . Best regards Gabor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain goat Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 Thanks Gabor! Very little if at all remains from these visits. I was afraid of that. As to the Russians. They had their own bases so if there was any joint training they would fly from there. Now you mention that - I vaguely remember reading somewhere about (annual?) Hungarian exercises on grass and I believe I've seen a picture of a Soviet Su-7B during such an exercise. Bur that's probably a one-off. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ya-gabor Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The Hungarian Air Force MiG-21’s were regularly practising on grass airfields. Each “fixed” air base had its own secondary grass airstrip for such practice. It was quite a sight to see MiG-21 fighters taking off with afterburner from grass fields. Now you mention, not with Czech but with Polish aircraft we did have joint operation of sort. It was live missile trainings from Polish base and a live firing range out at sea. Here you would see Polish and Hungarian Migs standing side by side, but it was not a joined operation! The Polish base was rented out for the firing exercise, and on these days the Polish were not flying only the Hungarians. The only Polish aircraft in air were some MiG-21UM’s jointly flown by Polish and Hungarian crew for weather reconnaissance at the range. Same was for MiG-29’s live firing. Here of course Polish MiG-29 standing next door. Best regards Gabor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Hello Jay! I think that Finnish military aircraft started to appear at European Air Bases in the early 1990's. That time the Finnish Air Force started to re-equip with F/A-18 Hornets and also a tighter co-operation with NATO. There is however a chance for you to build a diorama with Finnish MiG-21Fs and Russian MiG-23s from Kubinka Airbase. Later the Russians flew the then new MiG-29 and Finns with MiG-21BIS. The Russians usually had also an Antonov transport plane to carry the ground crew. Best Regards, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain goat Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 (edited) The Hungarian Air Force MiG-21’s were regularly practising on grass airfields. Each “fixed” air base had its own secondary grass airstrip for such practice. It was quite a sight to see MiG-21 fighters taking off with afterburner from grass fields. with Polish aircraft we did have joint operation of sort. It was live missile trainings from Polish base and a live firing range out at sea. Great! That's really useful information, Gabor. Thank you for that. I shall look up which Polish air base that is because I believe that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for! ( EDIT: Got it! Gdynia Babie-Doly Air Base. ) On grass operations, perhaps you already know it, but there's a nice YouTube video on grass operations I watch sometimes. There is however a chance for you to build a diorama with Finnish MiG-21Fs and Russian MiG-23s from Kubinka Airbase. Later the Russians flew the then new MiG-29 and Finns with MiG-21BIS. Nice suggestion - thank you; fortunately, there's lots of pictures of those deployments. Jay Edited February 2, 2016 by Mountain goat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelldoc Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 During the cold war sometimes comes polish, czech and hungarian MiG / Su for ashort visit / excercise to East German AF bases. So it's possible. Starts end of the 50 ties until 8 0ties. Have no pics at the moment. modelldoc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain goat Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 During the cold war sometimes comes polish, czech and hungarian MiG / Su for ashort visit / excercise to East German AF bases. Thanks Modelldoc, I had no idea, so now I know better what I'm looking for - found an excellent thread on flugzeugforum.de about this very subject! Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingdutchman Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Hi Jay, I only know of the GDR forces to have visitors on their airfields in the GDR. This was not only Russian traffic but also Czech or Polish. I have a book about JG-7 which flew the Mig-21 from Drewitz, in this book two pictures are shown with one Russian Mig-21 visiting and another picture with both Russian an Czech Mig-21's. It was not allowed for GDR planes to visit russian airfields in within the GDR, this was strictly forbidden!!! At one point a SU-22 had to make an emergency landing which caused quite a stir with both Russian and GDR officials having long talks. Picture 1: Picture 2: Full credits to the author of In Ehren aus Dienst gestellt published in 2009 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floggerman Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 It was not allowed for GDR planes to visit russian airfields in within the GDR, this was strictly forbidden!!! At one point a SU-22 had to make an emergency landing which caused quite a stir with both Russian and GDR officials having long talks. This is for sure not true, at least not in general. Damgarten AFB (of VVS) was our (Peenemuende,GDR AFB) common reserve airport. During my service (80's) 2 or 3 times used, never any problem. We had joint exercises with VVS (frequently), for instance 1981 an Autobahn landing of our and VVS MiG-23. We had also visitors from Poland (Lim-6). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain goat Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 Thanks for the info guys. Damgarten AFB (of VVS) was our (Peenemuende,GDR AFB) common reserve airport. During my service (80's) 2 or 3 times used, never any problem.We had joint exercises with VVS (frequently), for instance 1981 an Autobahn landing of our and VVS MiG-23. We had also visitors from Poland (Lim-6). Interesting Floggerman, thank you. If you don't mind, I have a few questions. Would the visiting Lims you mention, come just to say hi or would the pilots come for lunch, or would they be there for official work? The reason I ask is if I'd make a diorama of that, I'd need to know what the personnel around an aircraft looked like (busy or at ease), know what I mean? Second question: would you ever see aircraft from different nationalities parked next to each other for instance? (I have found pictures of Czechoslovak MiG-21MFs parked randomly among GDR MiG-21SPSs) Full credits to the author of In Ehren aus Dienst gestellt published in 2009 Thanks for the scans - really helpful! Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ya-gabor Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 The military service life is not one where you just go around for your pleasure and one sunny afternoon jump into your Lim and fly over to the nearest GDR base to have fun. Seriously. All such visits were planed well in advance and had very particular purpose! Either: -live missile firing (like Hungary has no such range so we had to go to Russia (for longer range missiles) or to Poland (for normal AAM’s), - it could have been a big military exercise (the most common of reasons for such visit), - it could have been a courtesy visit . . . In every case such a visit has very high costs, not only flying the fighter planes there but also have a transport which takes all the necessary ground equipment, spare parts or even the missiles for that firing exercise. You need to have all the logistics, have to give food to flight and ground crews, accommodation, transport at the host base, one has to pay “pocket money” in local currency to the crews . . . All this costs a lot and in accordance any visit has time limits and the visiting crews have to adhere to a very strict schedule. The personal has its tasks and it has to be on time! With a live missile firing exercise you need (in Poland) extra security at the range, there are Navy boats out to protect the range boundaries, one has to order from the local AF the targets and also the aircraft which deliver them. All this is happening on a very strict time table. So going back to your question . . . One more thing, I have observed pilots at such visits and they were very, very nervous in most cases, they were taken out from the safe environment of the home base and comfy everyday life and had to perform tasks which were not normally part of their everyday life and all this at a strange airfield, different weather conditions . . . Best regards Gabor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingdutchman Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 This is for sure not true, at least not in general. Damgarten AFB (of VVS) was our (Peenemuende,GDR AFB) common reserve airport. During my service (80's) 2 or 3 times used, never any problem. We had joint exercises with VVS (frequently), for instance 1981 an Autobahn landing of our and VVS MiG-23. We had also visitors from Poland (Lim-6). Maybe the case I read was about a landing on an airbase which was a bit more special than most others. It was about Gross-Dölln which also housed TU-22 on rotation...so maybe they didn't like it to 'appear'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truro Model Builder Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 In the case of emergency or weather diversions, anything could turn up anywhere, so I would imagine there is a lot of flexibility you can build into these dioramas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Soviet MiG-21 and MiG-23 visited Swedish air bases in the late sixties and early 80s. The MiG-21 visit is actually shown on the old Matchbox MiG-21 boxart. Contact me if you want more information on this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Soviet AF in France. Sept.1978 http://www.airforce.ru/history/france78/02_nakleika_1978.jpg http://www.airforce.ru/history/france78/11_jaguar.jpg http://www.airforce.ru/history/france78/index.htm B.R. Serge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 It was the only aviaregiment in the USSR showing planes and aerobatics in the West. The first visit took place in 1967 - the group of 12 fighters MiG-21ФЛ visited Sweden. In September, 1971 the six MiG-21 of the 234th GIAP landed on the French AB Reims. Furor caused in 1978 visit of fighters MiG-23MLA to Finland (July-August) and France (September). For the first time in the West close could see MiG-23 and estimate skill of the pilots piloting fighters with changeable sweep of a wing. In 1981 the second friendly visit to Sweden took place. - The first emergence of fighters MiG-29 in the West is also connected with the Cuban. The five MiG-29 of the 234th regiment visited on July 1 the Finnish AB of Kouppio. Visit lasted four days. Indicative flights made due impression. - aviaregiment not only paid visits, but also received guests from the West, besides - only in the Soviet Union. The first the Cuban was visited in 1974. SAAB J-35 fighters of "Draken" of the Air Force of Sweden. In 1979 visit of "Mirages" of F.1 from a squadron of "Normandy-Neman" took place, the French pilots became then guests of pilots from the Cuban in the first, but not last time. In June, 1990 in the sky to the Cuban as a part of a rhombus two MiG-29 and two French "Mirages" flew http://wap.kvkure.borda.ru/?1-15-0-00000049-000-80-0 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Thanks Modelldoc, I had no idea, so now I know better what I'm looking for - found an excellent thread on flugzeugforum.de about this very subject! Jay Jay have you got a link to hand please ? .. cheers.. interesting thread! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Hello all! An interesting MiG-23 poster on previous page. The poster however has nothing to do with France. Rissala Air Base is located near the city of Kuopio in Finland. In the text Kuopio was spelled Kouppio which of course is wrong. The first Soviet squadron exchange visit to Rissala took place in early August 1974 with five MiG-21BIS fighters from Kubinka AB. The second visit with six MiG-23ML (not MLA as mentioned above) took place between 1st and 4th of August 1978. The very first public appearance of MiG-29 in the west also took place in Kuopio when six planes arrived for a visit on July 1st 1986. What I didn't understand in the text above was that the MiG-29s had something to do with Cubans when they visited Finland?? They didn't. Finland was looking for a new fighter type to replace Mig-21 and SAAB J35 and the Soviets saw an opportunity for a fast deal...Nothing came of it. The Finnish Air Force yearbook from 1998 has some high quality colour pictures of these visits. Best Regards, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaCee26 Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Hi all, As always Antti is very well informed but maybe there is still room for some additions to the Finnish visits. If my memory serves right there has been published pictures of 1978 MiG-23 visit Finnish MiG-21Fs and Soviet MiG-23MLs parked nose to nose in the front of the Kuopio terminal. There was another visit with MiG-23MLs 1982. Also MiG-29s visited twice. Second visit was 1989 and then there was in an airshow static display with MiG-29 in the end continuing with Finnish MiGs etc IIRC. At least these two are potential diorama subjects. I was wondering if the Cuban is just a different transliteration of Kubinka? Cheers, AaCee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 I was wondering if the Cuban is just a different transliteration of Kubinka? Yes, correct Kubinka. But in some phonetic values, for the foreigner (or the computer translation system) it is rather difficult to understand about what there is a speech. Sometimes a difference only in an accent on a syllable. For example, speaking about someone, кУбинцы or кубИнцы. In the first case it is about (кУбинцы) Kubinka and in the second case about (кубИнцы) Cubans. B.R. Serge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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