1/72 - Dassault Mirage IIIE/EA/EBR & O by Modelsvit - MIIIE/EA/EBR/O released

[Antoine]

2 hours ago, Wez said:

2.  The kit is representing a jet in a pristine finish and yet the rivets can be seen.  On the picture of an in-service jet which is dirtier, no rivets can be seen, in theory the dirt should accentuate any depressed rivets on the in-service jet but they don't, why?  Because they are flush rivets!  Most rigger worth their salt shoot rivets to be flush or within 5 thousandths of an inch (0.127 mm) - that equates to 0.00177 mm in 1/72nd to 3 significant figures!  Scale the kits holes up to full size they would probably be as deep as the thickness of the skin used on the real thing.

 

This shouldn't show on a camouflaged jet in 1/72nd scale.  The only reason the rivets can be seen on a NMF jet is because of the material difference between the rivets and the skin.

 

I've just found this picture on one of the BM Walkaround set up by our very own Julien.

The jet is camouflaged, and obviously has been given a fresh coat of paint before being exposed.

And the rivet shows...

 

[Antoine]

Also, I did just took some time to compare the front fuselage to the drawings included in the DTU vol.2, Mirage IIIE's bible.

Yes, I've the book.. and the kit! for we need at least one of us who got it, uh?

Feel free to comment and use those pics for any demonstration you need, as far as I'm concerned, I'm off this topic.

 

 

[pinky coffeeboat]

Concerning the rivets, it wasn't that long ago that the fad was to drill the kits existing rivets even deeper to accentuate them and even today some modellers still do that and others flood a black wash across the painted model to highlight the panel lines. If we really want to be pedantic, from most viewing distances neither rivets nor panel lines would be noticeable. Weathering on models today is completely over the top and generally wrong, but that's what some modellers applaud along with the aforementioned rivets and panel washes. If a kit hasn't got rows of rivets, its condemned and if it does have rivets its condemned....who'd want to be a model company nowadays? We're spoilt and becoming very ungrateful.

 

The nose? It's a 1/72 scale kit, that for most modellers will sit on a shelf amongst a whole mix of other model aircraft, maybe some armour and perhaps some ships. Once built it'll generally be forgotten and overlooked as yet another spitcane 109 works it's way across the bench.

 

Jeff

Edited December 28, 2018 by pinky coffeeboat

[Dennis_C]

Rivets are ok when the kit is the only game in town in any foreseeable future. F-105 or RA-3C by trumpy as an example (yes I know there used to be other more ancient kits but grumpy is the o my readily available and pretty decent quality).

But with Mirage III I'd wait a while for SH to release theirs.

 

And personally I know I will destroy hundreds of rivets during assembly unless kit puts together like modern Eduard. And I'll need to redo them manually meaning ugly uneven rows of handmade rivets. Secondly I hate to apply decals over rivets as you need to put tons of setting solution to make rivets come through and after that you still need to take a needle and depress your decal into holes risking to damage it. And after all modern jets are definitely far from looking like a WWII tank... so rows of rivets are questionable anyway...

Edited December 28, 2018 by Dennis_C

[Wez]

11 hours ago, Antoine said:

And the rivet shows...

The fasteners for the removable panels show, the high tension fasteners (Hi-Loks?) under the cockpit sill and windscreen show just but Modelsvit has made no effort to represent those any differently.  What doesn't show is the plethora of rivets Modelsvit and others show as divots all over the place.  What you see is a flush riveted aircraft.

 

The holes used to represent rivets are nothing like how a rivet looks in real life, the closest they come to is the drilled hole ready to accept a rivet, I'm sorry but this fad is the Emperor's New Clothes.  You can put them on your model if you wish but we shouldn't have the choice forced upon us.  This is a deal breaker for me.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Wez

[Laurent]

34 minutes ago, Wez said:

The fasteners for the removable panels show, the high tension fasteners (Hi-Loks?) under the cockpit sill and windscreen show just but Modelsvit has made no effort to represent those any differently.  What doesn't show is the plethora of rivets Modelsvit and others show as divots all over the place.  What you see is a flush riveted aircraft.

I don't think it would have been feasible for Modelsvit to make holes of different sizes given they used CNC for tooling. Not possible to make fasteners look different from rivets in 1/72. The modeller is left to do "selective/local washes" (light grey for rivets, dark grey for fasteners for example)... not very convenient.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Laurent

[Laurent]

AML Mirage IIIC nose profile... shape looks better to me but the radome part (the black part) seems slightly too extended to me.

Source: http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/8-flugzeuge-modern/458-dassault-mirage-IIIc-aml.html

[Gene K]

On 12/29/2018 at 3:02 AM, Wez said:

  This [overdone rivets] is a deal breaker for me.

Sadly for me too. Reminds me too much of the R.V. Rivet Monster.  Hoping for a "cleaner" series from Special Hobby!!

 

Gene K

[Murph]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 5:32 PM, pinky coffeeboat said:

Concerning the rivets, it wasn't that long ago that the fad was to drill the kits existing rivets even deeper to accentuate them and even today some modellers still do that and others flood a black wash across the painted model to highlight the panel lines. If we really want to be pedantic, from most viewing distances neither rivets nor panel lines would be noticeable. Weathering on models today is completely over the top and generally wrong, but that's what some modellers applaud along with the aforementioned rivets and panel washes. If a kit hasn't got rows of rivets, its condemned and if it does have rivets its condemned....who'd want to be a model company nowadays? We're spoilt and becoming very ungrateful.

 

 

I find the discussion riveting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Somebody had to say it.

 

 

[ivand]

Too riveting, you mean... 😉

[Murph]

By coincidence, my new Modelsvit Mirage showed up yesterday.   I wouldn't be dissuaded by the riveting; Tamiya and Hasegawa on their best day would be happy to have detail that fine.  It is so petite that from many angles it's invisible to the naked eye, and will totally disappear if you prime and then paint.  What you're seeing in pictures is the result of digital photography and a large number of megapixels.  It's also possible that the panel lines will disappear too.  Personally, I'm planning to use a very fine pigment paint (Gunze Sangyo) without any priming to keep the detail.  As far as the nose shape, I'll leave that up to the cognoscenti to determine. 

The areas of criticism I have are twofold.  The complexity of the kit is one; the cockpit assembly went together well despite no locating pins and a daunting number of pieces for 1/72 scale.  The exhaust pipe is three separate longitudinal pieces for reasons I can't imagine.  That is just the exhaust pipe itself, not the nozzle or turbine face.  While talking about the nozzle, it also requires using photoetch that has to be folded into a circle (that always goes well), glued inside it, and then has numerous bends on various incredibly tiny portions of it.  I'm sorely tempted to wait for a resin replacement or try to adapt the one from the PJ kits.  The other criticism concerns the instructions.  They are incomplete; for instance, they don't mention that you have to bend four of the plastic pieces that serve to wall in the main landing gear wells.  Careful test fitting and thought is required with this kit. 

 

Regards,

Murph

[Aardvark]

2 hours ago, Murph said:

The exhaust pipe is three separate longitudinal pieces for reasons I can't imagine. 

From my personal experience with analogue detail from Su-17M, if this detail correct progected and made,  I don't see any problems with this exhaust. 

Why three parts and not two? Three parts are better positioned in a circle, if done correctly.

Don't forget used thin glue type Tamiya for assembling this exhaust and results pleasantly surprised so much,  that you don’t even remember where your putty, sandpaper and file are!!! 😉😎

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[ModelSvit Balkans]

Dear friends,
On behal of Modelsvit team, would like to clarify the issue with rivets on our Mirage IIIE (#72045), which have became a subject of long discussions among you.
FYI: On the Mirage III E's early bare metal schemes (see bellow) the rivets were well visible. Later on the the fuselage was primed, its surface became sleeker and riveting slightly disappeared. Therefore, in order to simplify the work of those of you, willing to have the early metal scheme, we released the kit with rivets.

Thank you for your attention!

 

Pic 4

[Wez]

6 hours ago, ModelSvit Balkans said:

On the Mirage III E's early bare metal schemes (see bellow) the rivets were well visible.

Because they're made from a different material and thus have a different colour, not because they're indentations in the skin.

[Laurent]

1 hour ago, Wez said:

Because they're made from a different material and thus have a different colour, not because they're indentations in the skin.

Ok but how can a different colour be applied without using a wash (which needs recessed rivets) ?

Edited January 28, 2019 by Laurent

[Wez]

2 hours ago, Laurent said:

Ok but how can a different colour be applied without using a wash (which needs recessed rivets) ?

Decals, paint but not divots (rivets fill holes, these are holes).

Edited January 28, 2019 by Wez

[Vultures1]

9 hours ago, ModelSvit Balkans said:

Dear friends,
On behal of Modelsvit team, would like to clarify the issue with rivets on our Mirage IIIE (#72045), which have became a subject of long discussions among you.
 

I'm not going to get in the middle of the debate about whether or not to rivet but I would like to commend the Modelsvit team for taking the trouble to post their reasoning on Britmodeller.  I for one really welcome this engagement from a manufacturer.

 

Thank you!

 

PS For the avoidance of doubt, I have no connection with Modeslvit...other than having purchased a number of their products!

[pinky coffeeboat]

Very true, it makes us remember that behind  all  model kits is a person who has given up their time to provide what we claim is the most wanted model kit of all time (if you read some posts).

We must also always remember that it is a hobby, a past time, not a matter of life or death.

 

Enjoy it while we still have people who are prepared to invest their time and money to help us, before all our complaining and rivet counting persuades them to give up.

 

Jeff

[ya-gabor]

I for one happy to see the fine details on this kit (what is visible on photos). Have to add that I don’t yet have the kit. Look forward to buying one from Ukrainian vendors at this years Moson show (hope they will have the kit on sale). The shape of this fighter is something special! I am looking forward very much to this kit.

 

Building a kit is somewhere cheating on its own, since you are trying to imitate reality in a far smaller scale. One has to cut corners for this. To achieve authenticity (of some sort) it is essential to cheat with details, scale thickness . . .  and of course with panel lines and rivets also.  

In the “golden era” most aircraft were natural metal and yes, due to different materials used the rivets were very much so visible, even if the actual surface was as smooth as silk. In most scales including 72nd the only way to reproduce this, and with cheating imitate the real aircraft in scale is by adding a wash.

 

It is perfectly understandable that some people like this or that. No one is forcing the ones who don’t like rivets to buy this kit. It is a hobby and a free choice!

 

What will Special Hobby make of the Mirage III??? We will know only after it is released. On the other hand I have the Mirage F-1 (the best looking fighter ever!!!) Special Hobby made and frankly speaking it was a bit of a disappointment with oversimplified details in some areas. Once again no one is forced to buy this or that kit!

 

Best regards

Gabor

Just a personal message to Modelsvit here if I can, even if it is off-topic.  Only hope that Modelsvit will continue with the line of Fishbeds and produce the MiG-21F-13 version (most of the kit is there already in the 21F kit (72021) so minimal extra work is needed now). No one else will make it!

[4scourge7]

I too commend a manufacturer for connecting with potential customers, plenty don`t.

Whiles not wishing to involve myself with who`s right and who`s wrong, I can say that I`m very much looking forward to the pair of Daggers I will be purchasing, umm...maybe four. 

Yeah, I think I`ll need four to cover the squadrons and jets I wish to model. Four please. 

Ian

[Sturmovik]

Suggestion for Modelsvit for their Dagger, Museo Aeronáutico de Morón here in Buenos Aires has a Dagger, C-432, 6th Fighter Group, Captain Norberto Dimeglio. I believe the aircraft had another numeral before, because the markings on the plane are stickers (one is peeling off).

I have a video walkaround of it from my last trip to the museum, I can post it here if you guys want.

[Tomppa B]

Photos of airplanes with visible rivets are taken from very close! For me, visible rivets would make the model look unrealistic in 1/72.

[Gene K]

On 1/29/2019 at 1:54 AM, ya-gabor said:

No one is forcing the ones who don’t like rivets to buy this kit. It is a hobby and a free choice!

 

  Thank you for repeatedly pointing this fact out in many different BM threads. 

 

Gene K

Edited February 11, 2019 by Gene K

[ya-gabor]

27 minutes ago, Gene K said:

 

  Thank you for repeatedly pointing this fact out in many different BM threads. 

 

Gene K

Oh common. Sorry if you are offended. Apologies!!!

 

We all have different taste and this includes model kits too. I like the rivets if they are made in the very delicate way that Modelsvit has shown. Sorry that you don’t like it.

Please contact the company if you have differing views.

 

Best regards

Gabor  

[Gene K]

19 minutes ago, ya-gabor said:

 Sorry if you are offended. 

 

If you are serious, I am not offended at all, thanks. 

 

For sure,  I am very serious when I say that, with all respect,  you are one of my "treasured" resources here on BM ... as well as on other modeling forums. Your background and technical knowledge of Russian aircraft is remarkably deep, and I certainly appreciate the manner in which you so selflessly share that technical expertise. I also appreciate that it takes much time and effort to so meticulously document your posts, and as I've said before -- THANK YOU!

 

32 minutes ago, ya-gabor said:

Please contact the company if you have differing views.

 

On the other hand,  that dismissive statement is as valuable as reminding me that I don't have to buy certain kits if I don't like them. To indulge in that  same manner: this is a discussion group where folks can share opinions openly.

 

Gene K