Type 45 breakdowns

[Roof Rat]

Oh dear......

http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/royal-navy-destroyers-to-get-new-engines-after-breakdowns-11364036813211

RR

[SleeperService]

Interesting snippet

A spokeswoman for BAE Systems, which builds the ships, said: "The Type 45 Destroyers are among the world's most capable air defence Destroyers, able to carry out a wide range of operations for the Royal Navy.

For a ship class that shows it's barely able to defend itself against air attack on a regular basis that's a bit of a misleading statement methinks.

I agree "Oh Dear" I can hear my Grandfather spinning in his grave (Royal Navy 1905 to 1920)

[Alan P]

For a ship class that shows it's barely able to defend itself against air attack on a regular basis

Where have you heard that? What a load of utter tosh.

Alan

[paul178]

Alan probably this.

BBC News 29/01/2016:

Type 45 destroyers: UK's £1bn warships face engine refit
The Type 45 destroyer is one of the most advanced anti-aircraft warships of its kind
The Royal Navy's most modern warships are to be fitted with new engines because they keep breaking down.
In an email seen by the BBC, a serving Royal Navy officer wrote that "total electric failures are common" on its fleet of six £1bn Type 45 destroyers.
The Ministry of Defence said there were reliability issues with the propulsion system and work to fix it would be done to ensure "ships remain available".
One Royal Navy officer said the cost could reach tens of millions of pounds.
In a statement, the MoD told the BBC that to "address some reliability issues" it was considering options to "upgrade the ships' diesel generators to add greater resilience to the power and the propulsion system". That will involve significant work, though the Royal Navy insists that the six destroyers will still be deployed all over the world.
'Major weak link'
But from 2019 each will begin to undergo a major refit that will probably involve cutting a large hole to insert at least one new generator into the ship. The work will be staggered to ensure the Navy still has ships to send on operations. The MoD would not give any details on cost.
Admiral Lord West, a former First Sea Lord, said the development was "very worrying" and the MoD must have known "three or four years ago" that the destroyers had problems.
The ex-Labour security minister said any delay in rectifying the problem would leave the Navy's surface fleet badly stretched, as the Navy can already "only just do some of the tasks we should be doing around the world". "What I would hope is there is already in place a 'get well' programme and we must move very quickly to rectify these problems," he said.
'The lights went out'
I experienced one of the many power outages on board HMS Dauntless, off the coast of Senegal, in 2012. Suddenly all the lights on the ship went out. It was quickly fixed but it appears to be a problem that has plagued the entire fleet. In 2014 Dauntless had to abandon a training exercise and, in 2009, HMS Daring lost power in the Atlantic on her first voyage to the US. She suffered more propulsion problems off Kuwait in 2012. Initially the MoD dismissed these electrical failures as "teething problems". But it has now admitted that there is a bigger problem - one that could be disastrous for a ship and her crew in combat. Nick Childs, of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said: "It's an unfortunate extra cost the Royal Navy will have to swallow to sort out an unreliable propulsion system - the major weak link in an otherwise world-beating system. "They're essentially going to have to squeeze in an extra generator to improve reliability." The warning signs were there in 2009 when the Commons Defence Committee published its report on the Type 45. MPs noted "persistent over-optimism and underestimation of the technical challenges, combined with inappropriate commercial arrangements" leading to rising costs. Each destroyer ended up costing about £1bn. The Royal Navy wanted 12 ships but ended up with half that number. The Type 45 has an integrated electric propulsion system that powers everything on board.
'World's most capable'
The problem won't be solved quickly and it is likely to put a strain on the Royal Navy, which has already shrunk considerably in size. It is now down to a surface fleet of 19 frigates and destroyers. A spokesman for Rolls-Royce, which makes the WR-21 marine gas turbine used on the warships, said the company continued to work with the MoD on upgrading the performance of the propulsion system. BAE Systems, the company which builds the warships, said in a statement that the destroyers were "among the world's most capable air defence destroyer". It said it was working with the MoD "to deliver improvements to the power generation capability of the Type 45 destroyers".

[bentwaters81tfw]

We know about the generator problems, it was the bit about air attacks that was in question. AFAIK it is so good, they are seconded to the USN as they are better than their own vessels at fleet defence.

[Francis Macnaughton]

For a ship class that shows it's barely able to defend itself against air attack on a regular basis that's a bit of a misleading statement methinks.

The wikipaedia entry for "Sea Viper" lists a series of successful T45 PAAMS firings in recent years so not sure where the bit about inability to defend itself comes from

- assuming the weapon system has a steady power supply of course!

[AntPhillips]

Funnily enough I was watching a programme on ForcesTV last week about the T45, it included a sequence shot during a Thursday War exercise, the T45 was doing a great job controlling the air environment for the blue forces, but then in the thick of it the power went off and £1 billion worth of the Royal Navies pride and joy had to rely on the good old Mk1 eyeball to detect incoming threats.

Hopefully the additional generator will fix the problem, but I find it hard to believe that the designers so badly underestimated the power consumption of the system at full tilt.

It's a great system when it works unfortunately it would seem that power blackouts are all too common, and that's its weakness.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

How many Brahmos missiles do you reckon you could buy with a billion quid?

[Alan P]

Yes as Mr bentwaters said, I was taking issue with the defence capability question rather than the obvious fact of the CODEG system shortcomings. It's more about the choice of generator than the design. Can't really go further than that without mentioning politics, but it's a good example of "For want of a nail..."

Al

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Indeed. It's also probably worth pointing out that the press are portraying this as something sudden, new & urgent. Gosh, shock, horror, sensation, they might have to cut a hole in the hull. What, you mean like they do in many major refits to get gearboxes in & out, etc?

That is not to deny that there is a real problem, but 3 powe failures in 7 years in 3 separate ships is not the catastrophe that it's being portrayed - after all, they'd hardly be waiting a further 3 years before even starting to address it if things were as desperate as they make it sound.

Lack of hulls is the much bigger problem - not to mention shortage of engineers!

[phildagreek]

It's also about journalists hearing a part of a story they don't really understand & trying to make it into something to sell papers, 24 hour news etc.

[bentwaters81tfw]

It's also about journalists hearing a part of a story they don't really understand & trying to make it into something to sell papers, 24 hour news etc.

Tell me about it.

[SleeperService]

Where have you heard that? What a load of utter tosh.

Alan

From a CPO on one of the ships concerned.

The only tosh is Naval Forces clinging to the idea that the best way to protect themselves against an air threat is with a ship. FFS Mitchell showed that fallacy in the 30s. WW2 should have been the end of the argument. 191 men and 1 billion GBP to carry a 4.5" gun, an anti-air missle system restricted by the horizon and a helicopter to protect itself from submarines. You couldn't make it up.

Best Air Defence Ship is as relevant as best Chocolate teapot. With application you can make a chocolate teapot work but there are better solutions available.

In the 21st Century a navy with more Admirals than ships and those with closed minds is a national disgrace.

[Alan P]

From a CPO on one of the ships concerned.

The only tosh is Naval Forces clinging to the idea that the best way to protect themselves against an air threat is with a ship. FFS Mitchell showed that fallacy in the 30s. WW2 should have been the end of the argument. 191 men and 1 billion GBP to carry a 4.5" gun, an anti-air missle system restricted by the horizon and a helicopter to protect itself from submarines. You couldn't make it up.

Best Air Defence Ship is as relevant as best Chocolate teapot. With application you can make a chocolate teapot work but there are better solutions available.

In the 21st Century a navy with more Admirals than ships and those with closed minds is a national disgrace.

Our primary sources clearly differ in their assessments of their ships' capabilities! I don't really know where to start with all that, so I'd best leave it there.

Al

[junglierating]

It's got a good in radar

That was supposed two say hoofin

[phildagreek]

They are good & capable ships, can they be improved? Of course, what machine/ system can't be? They are so technologically advanced they make the Leanders, (my first class of ship) look positively stone aged.

But as always, they are hindered by lack of numbers and wanting one hull to do three different jobs. That's just the way it is, the days of squadrons of ships dedicated to anti air or anti sub are a long time ago and won't ever be seen again. Today's RN is not yesterday's and certainly not tomorrow's.

[Paul E]

From a CPO on one of the ships concerned.

The only tosh is Naval Forces clinging to the idea that the best way to protect themselves against an air threat is with a ship. FFS Mitchell showed that fallacy in the 30s. WW2 should have been the end of the argument. 191 men and 1 billion GBP to carry a 4.5" gun, an anti-air missle system restricted by the horizon and a helicopter to protect itself from submarines. You couldn't make it up.

Best Air Defence Ship is as relevant as best Chocolate teapot. With application you can make a chocolate teapot work but there are better solutions available.

In the 21st Century a navy with more Admirals than ships and those with closed minds is a national disgrace.

That says it all really! if it's a CPO they are either expressing their satisfaction and happiness in their job or taking the p!$$. But most likely both!

As Jack always says "Never let the truth get in the way of a good dit"

Paul E

Ex CPO Weapon Engineer

Edited February 3, 2016 by Paul E

[SleeperService]

That says it all really! if it's a CPO they are either expressing their satisfaction and happiness in their job or taking the p!$$. But most likely both!

As Jack always says "Never let the truth get in the way of a good dit"

Paul E

Ex CPO Weapon Engineer

I have other sources as well but have come to realise that we have a great topic for a long drinking discussion. I respect your views and the manner in which you've stated them. What has come across is the doubt we all harbour about our Press and their ability to get to the root of an issue. Cheers Chaps

[Francis Macnaughton]

The only tosh is Naval Forces clinging to the idea that the best way to protect themselves against an air threat is with a ship.

I'm curious about what alternative was suggested that can provide continuous air defence cover for other surface ships at any part of the world's oceans instead?

[bentwaters81tfw]

I'm curious about what alternative was suggested that can provide continuous air defence cover for other surface ships at any part of the world's oceans instead?

24 hour CAP

[SleeperService]

I'm curious about what alternative was suggested that can provide continuous air defence cover for other surface ships at any part of the world's oceans instead?

24 hour CAP

As above and/or radar relay drones combined with alert aircraft. Satellite cover for really early warning. The technology already exists. If you want to push the envelope a bit then large refuelling drones wouldn't be difficult then you'd have a mother/hen set-up that could go anywhere as well as refuel fighter aircraft. Just needs an open mind.

[Sgeek]

As above and/or radar relay drones combined with alert aircraft. Satellite cover for really early warning. The technology already exists. If you want to push the envelope a bit then large refuelling drones wouldn't be difficult then you'd have a mother/hen set-up that could go anywhere as well as refuel fighter aircraft. Just needs an open mind.

'Just needs an open mind'. Small flaw in your blue sky thinking. UK PLC along with most western countries are broke. What you are describing would entail having massively deep pockets.

While it is plausible and may well come to pass. Think Dan Dare comic strip from our childhood (we are approx the same age), some has happened

I suspect you are an enthusiastic armchair admiral/air vice Marshall or have conversations with folk who do R&D.

Having been one of the 'grunts on the ground' I tend to view folk like that with a little bit of scepticism.

As pointed out to me by a RM a long time ago when we had been given the career enhancing opportunity to experience and review a game changing piece of technology that was the current fantasy toy of the grown ups , 'Whilst climbing out of the envelope maintaining focus on the blue sky to rally your thoughts will lead you to placing your feet into the minefield without seeing the disturbed earth.' It never made it into general service and was quietly filed away as 'something from the bright ideas club'.

I am assuming you view warships as an anachronism (battleship vs aircraft carrier progression) and that have very little use in the modern world except in low intensity operations (smuggling,counter piracy ops). Whizzy fast things are the future.

Sorry but the whizzy fast things have as many problems and hang ups as the floaty slow things. Combined operations are practiced for a reason. Aircraft cannot hold open sea lanes on their own, they cannot take and hold ground. For that grey floaty things are needed and green shouty things have to get their boots dirty.

Having actually served on ASW Frigates/AD Destroyers/Carriers/LSL in operations I can say it was always nice when we had air cover. Being able to reach out and touch someone when the air cover was not available (engineering failure, weather, light blue weekends and leave periods ) was a pleasant feeling.

in one of your earlier posts you touched on areas you considered to be weaknesses in this day and age. Sonar, Helos etc. Funnily enough things like that are considered in ship designs. As well as understanding what the threat is now and a considered 'finger in the air' for threats in the future.

The type 45's replacement may have consideration built in for the Dan Dare vision of the future you currently have but in the real world MR SAM, a 4.5 HE brick thrower and ship borne helo will all help it stay alive.

I am still in contact with people who are serving on 45's who I served with over my time. One of whom used to operate Sea Dart on a 42. He loves his new toy and the pain and grief he can deliver to the sky gods. I assume your contact is actually involved in the operational delivery of weapons on target and not an interested bystander who hears things in the Senior Rates mess? I always found the Chefs and Stewards were amongst the most cynical about combat capability.

There is an old saying about opinions, their prevalence with everyone and an equivalence in numbers with a certain part of the anatomy used for waste evacuation.

You aren't Lewis Page by any chance are you?

[Francis Macnaughton]

24 hour CAP

Thanks and to respond with a couple of follow up questions: where is the CAP based if the ships in question are somewhere without a handy, secure and friendly air base to hand? Also, I would be interested to know what airborne weapon system has a look down/shoot down capability for stealth supersonic sea-skimming anti-ship missiles?

Sgeek - your last question was the next I was going to ask?!

[bentwaters81tfw]

Thanks and to respond with a couple of follow up questions: where is the CAP based if the ships in question are somewhere without a handy, secure and friendly air base to hand? Also, I would be interested to know what airborne weapon system has a look down/shoot down capability for stealth supersonic sea-skimming anti-ship missiles?

Sgeek - your last question was the next I was going to ask?!

The Type 45 would be deployed with a carrier force, as they are with Uncle Sam at present. Don't forget, the new all-singing, all-dancing F-35 will be able to handle half a dozen stealthy sea skimming missiles at once - NOT!

[Sgeek]

The Type 45 would be deployed with a carrier force, as they are with Uncle Sam at present. Don't forget, the new all-singing, all-dancing F-35 will be able to handle half a dozen stealthy sea skimming missiles at once - NOT!

Yep, never once in 23 years did vessels I was serving on not have the umbrella of land based CAP or Carrier fast air or was so far down the priority list for protection that we just scraped in on page 2 of the list for assistance. Nor move into positions quickly as we were the nearest effective asset where the conditions would have become a bit 'fruity' should the locals have got a bit belligerent and moved from rioting on the streets to trying to make a point to the imperialists/infidels/poodle lackeys.

Gunboat diplomacy does still have some life in it even in this modern age