LongMan2 Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Magpie 22 Let me make things clear here. Firstly I wana thank you for posting those pictures. You must have gone to a lot of trouble. If the word “fake” is insulting then I apologize as it was never my intent. Possible poor choice of wording... Importantly, I have no wish to discuss nor wish anyone, in this posting, to bring up the subject of any memorial to downed Halifax crews nor their ground staff. If you truly knew, you would know I'm very supportive of all veterans and the people that aid them. However, this is a modeling page thread which “I- meaning me” started. It was done basically for the purpose to discuss and determine the authenticity of all documentation and existing Halifax bomber airframes and literature; so that a exact scale WWII replica can be built. I hope in your post above, you and others, choose to edit any reference to a memorial as it is a matter of not drifting off topic...and being affable. If you don't I will ask the moderators to. Further, the MAP plans were drawn by K Merrick, and they appear to be the most accurate. Supporting those plans is his excellent book (ISBN 978 I 906537 06 7) on the Halifax. However that being said, I have no idea where FM got their reference from. As you know there are free French markings on the other side of this YAM aircraft and at the time this model was molded it was the most likely point of reference. Unfortunately FM refused to acknowledge my numerous emails to them. Not only for replacement of my damaged parts but also to consult on references. If you know more them please feel free to post that information here. Also if you have the actual model in front of you then you would know what I'm talking about, particularly if you are a HP Halifax enthusiast. Because of the new information provided on BM - the YAM - HP Halifax – I'm afraid it has been - ruled out – by me. It is not a true Halifax airframe, its just a good representation. I don't care if a Hastings wing looks like a Halifax wing…I've been trapped by those statements before. I hope the museum staff place a detailed description, including an exploded diagram, on the information plaque, near the aircraft, detailing what was done to avoid any confusion. Many modeling companies and modellers have spent great deals of time and money gathering documentation and data from sub airframes that are in error or just mock-ups. All be it good intentions. Those companies and modellers then only suffer the ridicule by the scale model community for their errors. Maggpie22, That could be avoided if it was clearly documented. As an example, I'm looking at WARPAINT series No. 46 on the Halifax, which also identified the YAM Halifax as a walk-around subject. From the posting here I can see that book is now in question as an information source as well. However I do take offense when posters, like yourself, who try and plant words in my mouth with unfounded and erroneous accusations. Magpie22 quote : “You say you have researched the Halifax in detail” My answer: I hope this is not being fallacious. I have not done complete research on the subject...if I had I wouldn't be asking the kind help from individuals on Britmodeller. Magpie22 quote : I have no idea what you mean by, "And the main hinge for the wing flaps is highly visible but still no images of it. I guess its too high up for most to take a photo of." My Answer: Scale models are looked over from above when displayed on a table. The FM kit has those flaps parts cut out as separate pieces...thus making landing flaps in the lowered position. The hinge detail of the flaps would bee seen from above and in those tiny cracks by astute judges. The rear elevators are also very visible...and should reflect the true WWII airframe. For your information, the Canadian Air Force Museum Halifax Bomber has a mezzanine floor that looks down upon the top of the airframe...a simple search will reveal all. Unfortunately no one has taken suitable walk-around photos of this aircraft that would disclose the relevant details. Here are some photos that were modified from www...I hope the owners don't mind. Perhaps as you evidently know a lot about this particular Halifax Bomber mock-up at the YAM - if you could please detail what was done here it would be greatly appreciated; and be a reference for other fellow modellers… And please don't take offense by what I have written above as that is not my intent... Thank you. PHIL. Edited January 30, 2016 by LongMan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Oh, nevermind. Edited January 30, 2016 by gingerbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Hi Gingerbob, Well....what were you thinking? PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I think a few chill pills need to be taken by all. Phil meant no harm by his statement, and in fact he wasn't the first person to use the word "fake" or thereabouts. Saying that it's not a true representation of a wartime airframe is by no means untrue or derogatory, so wind-down a little and take the comment in the intended context of a guy trying to build an accurate model. Back to the topic in hand please. Why do I need to say this to grown men? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I do not profess to be an expert but, if one looks closely at the 'bumps' shown above, that looks remarkably like a piece of pressed metal stretching across the top of the fuselage starting from the leading edge of the elevators and ending half way down Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 Hi All, Thanks much Mike....however I wish both Magpie22 and Vicarage Vee would amend their posting. Ken I have no idea what is there. These seem to cover the shaft for the elevators and may be lube access for bearings? Not sure. Someone that has more background on Halifax would kindlly post with details...may be a page of notes from a manual would help. As for the main flaps...I have no idea what or how they are attached to the wing. Again if the Canadian aircraft can't lower its flaps we will never know. Still lots to find out on Halifax's. PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heraldcoupe Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 As for the main flaps...I have no idea what or how they are attached to the wing. Again if the Canadian aircraft can't lower its flaps we will never know. I suggested earlier that you try looking for images of W1048 at Hendon. It's been very well photographed and this image was quickly found through Google. Cheers, Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 Hi Heraldcoupe, Thanks for the photo link...yet its not well photographed in the sense one can't see the top of the flap edge. An edge that would be highly visible on a finished model. These flaps are not revealing the mechanism that operates them. The flaps look like they are just hung there to be honest. May be someone near Hendon can take a lookie... Also I believe this is a MkII (special) airframe and I'm not sure the flap area hasn't been modified for the MkIII. As you can see in the many photos of the Greek guys MkII build; he doesn't have the slots nor mechanism… I guess my quest will continue… Thanks much. PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 Hi All, Here is a wartime photograph of a HP Halifax Mk II in flight with the sun at the right angle to reveal the bumps. I'm not sure if these are on a Halifax Mk III. I hope someone can clarify it for me. I hope to find out more about the main flaps.... PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cees Broere Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 It looks like a Mk II with early fins. I think the bumps cover the elevator actuators. Ceex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) Hi All, Well you might be right Ceex. I still have no idea what this area should look like on a Mk III. I'm still waiting for some help with Photos of the airframe (although damaged at Hendon) I figure my posting has opened up the Halifax issue...I believe this aircraft really deserves a better shake of things...when it comes to accuracy. That being said I've been looking through my reference collection and have come up with these...but still I don't have definitive evidence on how the flaps are attached to the main wing. I could guess but that would be wrong for the other modelers here on BM... Here are some interesting photos and sections from WWW... Above we have a small photo of the restoration on the Canadian Halifax...its very dark but the slots are there in the flaps. Above is a sectional drawing of the main flap mechanism but I'm not sure if this is correct. I hope someone out there will have more information regarding this. A photo of the under wing of the Canadian Halifax restoration. In this finished state it clearly shows the underside roll-a-bearings that help guide the flaps. These are very different to the style used on the Yorkshire Museum HP Halifax Mk III. Also there are some differences that are notable with the wing in general. See note below. NOTE : from Cosford Museum - HR792/`LV907' Mk.III Yorkshire Air Museum. Composite restoration, using 25ft/7.72m section of rear fuselage from Halifax MK.II HR792, recovered from the Outer Hebrides in May 1984, and Hastings centre section and inner wings ex Hastings C.1A TG536 plus an unused set of Hastings outer wings. If you do a Google search you will find this wrongly labeled as a Halifax under wing bearing. Beware of these false photos wrongly labeled. I hope to find more information on the Halifax flaps and their details...again I request that any one out there in Britmodeller...if they know more please feel free to post. Thanks for looking. PHIL. Edited February 4, 2016 by LongMan2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cees Broere Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) Phil, Trenton had an almost complete Halifax to play with, especially the wings with flaps still in place. Although a Mk VII the airframe is generally compatible with the MK III. You may accept the wingflaps as shown on the pics does resemble the original Halifax set up. Cees Edited February 3, 2016 by Cees Broere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Here is the tail of the Canadian restoration. https://keepcalmandremember.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/toronto-airshow-camping-2014-164.jpg?w=700&h=521 http://www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/RCAFRoyalCanadianAirForceMuseum/HandleyPageHalifax/images/31HalifaxTailGunTurret.jpg The 'thing' is visible in both. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Does this help any? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cees Broere Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) Pic of W1048 at Hendon, image from flickr (Mick Baxter) Hope it helps. Cees https://www.flickr.com/photos/mickb6265/3284316029/ Edited February 5, 2016 by Cees Broere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 Hi All, Wow Canberra kid/ Aka John, I'm really interested where you were able to get that photo from. It appears that this is totally different to the others I've found. Can you verify where you got this from and any details on the Squadron, maintenance shop and where this photo was taken? I believe an English wheel may have been used to shape the bulge on the rear of the Halifax, but this is contradictory and obviously could increase the drag somewhat. Given the problems with the tail on Halifax; I think this is something out of the ordinary and not representative. Please others that know more chime in... Cees, yes I can see the vacant station where the flap should be. It has a bracket sticking out but I'm at a loss as to how it is connected to the flap thou. I guess a good sectional drawing is needed or a shop maintenance photo would be really nice. Just wishing there…. I hope more can be discovered as I think this posting is doing some good for those that wish to build an accurate HP Halifax Mk III. PHIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Hi Phil Some more all the photos are of English Electrics Halifax production in Preston, the photos are from BAe Systems north west heritage group archives,for which I have permission to post. There are a lot of photo's some more interesting to models than others. Edited February 6, 2016 by canberra kid 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Another one, not much use for modeling unless you want to go mad with supper detailing, but an interesting image I think. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 Hi John, Gee....wow, wow wow wow! Again I'm having trouble downloading these and taking a closer look at the details. There is so much missing information here....well at least in my mind. Just shows how far the FM kit needs to be worked on. I'm going to need to view these closer. John can you email these to me....Please? Yeah FM's landing gear is for a Mk II not a Mk III...needs major correction. also main wheels need to be narrowed slightly and hub details installed. Tail wheel is wrong....And then there is these exhausts...There is so much info in these photos...gee! I wonder if there is any way other parts from 1/48 scale kits or aftermarket could be used? I'm thinking THIS is starting to snowball into a very big project.... PHIL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Phil my email is [email protected] I'll send them on, but they are BIG! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I hadn't realised that the landing gear changed between the MK.II and the Mk.III, perhaps you could enlarge on this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I hadn't realised that the landing gear changed between the MK.II and the Mk.III, perhaps you could enlarge on this point? The only Halifax with a different undercarriage was the Mk.V, which was fitted with a Dowty levered-suspension u/c. All the rest had Messier u/c. http://www.network54.com/Forum/261665/thread/1200354540/last-1200458864/halifax+V+info- Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongMan2 Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Hi Alll, No take a closer look....MkII as some specific details.....where as the Mk III is plain. And yes the MkV has the Dowty ...which is heaps different. Here are some scrap sections from the great K Merrick drawings. It is modified by me for the Mk III. The photo above of the Halifax landing gear is a Mk III I believe. The best way to explain the Mk III's difference is with a diagram... I hope this helps.... PHIL. Edited February 7, 2016 by LongMan2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) OK,I've had a look through Merrick's latest tome without being able to distinguish any changes, let alone major ones. It's not unreasonable to expect changes over such a long production run, and these things are sometimes invisible if you don't know what you are looking for. Edit. Thanks for the sketches. It looks from the photos below that a rigid mounting for the brake hydraulic fluid was replaced by a flexible pipe. Quite what is going on in the ones with no visible pipe at all? Edited February 7, 2016 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Ok. I see the details you mention in these images of Mk.I's. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205235168 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205195760 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209103 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205210229 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209100 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205212781 These images show the u/c without the details. All are later marks. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126025 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126024 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126638 But this later mark has those details. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126637 And that's just using the IWM photos. Chris 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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