Lancaster Operation NG206

[Mancunian airman]

I am currently building a 9 Squadron Lancaster for the 'Made in Great Britain' build but I have a problem.

According to records the actual aircraft only flew 31 ops and was scrapped in September 1945. It joined the Squadron in October 1944.

The model aircraft is depicted having attacked the Tirpitz sometime between September and November 1944 so my problem is, how many bomb symbols, as illustrated on the nose, should it really have ??

The artwork shows 34 symbols, 11 on each row, apart from which, is wrong

Has anybody got any records to show how many Ops. she may have completed by the time of the Tirpitz attack ???

[tonyot]

I was looking into this same aircraft a while back and found this photo if it is of interest;

This aircraft had seen previous service with 630 Sqn and 227 Sqn before joining 9 Sqn as WS-J so the bomb log may be true for one of the Tirpitz raids, It later went to Tollerton Aircraft Services and was scrapped on the 4th Oct 1945, so it was most likely a well used airframe.

I will check my research info and get back to you if I find out anything else.

The subject of my own model was the predecessor of `Jane' and was the famous `Johnnie Walker' ;

Cheers

Tony

PS- I meant to add that the Matchbox Lancaster box art is one of my all time favourites,......it really captures the Lancaster well!

Edited January 16, 2016 by tonyot

[Vicarage Vee]

Looking through the squadron ORB is, I'm afraid, the best bet. It might not add up though as it depends whether aborted raids are recorded or not (remember, the nose tally is an unofficial record, and the ground crew may have felt differently about something like a 'NOET' than the clerk recording the ORB). Whatever happens, you can at least back up your choice with some hard evidence!

[Merlin 28]

NG206 (WS-J) attacked the Tirpitz on 29 Oct 1944, skipper was Dougie Melrose. The sortie markings shown on NG206 in your picture must have been flown with either 630 or 227 Squadrons. W4964 (WS-J) flew her last and 107th op (Bremen) with IX on the 6 Oct 1944 skipper was A E Jeffs. Referring to the Squadron ORB it would appear the Tirpitz raid on the 29th was NG206's first op with IX as I cannot find any reference to her between 6th Oct (W4964 last) and 29th Oct.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Merlin 28

[Merlin 28]

Sorry all dates should read 1944, my mistake chaps (Edited)

Edited January 16, 2016 by Merlin 28

[Merlin 28]

As Vicarage says the Ground crews record may have been different to the that of the recording Clerk, though they made quite a few mistakes themselves.

[Mancunian airman]

I really do appreciate the help there lads but the question is . . .

despite having seen previous service with 2 other squadrons previous, hence the bomb symbols, how many Ops after the Tirpitz raid ??

she only completed 31 in total . . . so if she did say, 2 Ops after the Tirpitz raid then I shall apply 29 symbols.

[Vicarage Vee]

Do you have a copy of the Movement Card? When did it leave the squadron? I'm afraid that the only way I know to find out is to look in the ORB for operations after 29th October 1944 until the airframe is transferred or the date of the last squadron op (Wangerooge?) and then deduct them from the known total.

[Merlin 28]

Will have a look in the ORB for ops after the 29th though bare with me as there is a lot to go through. Do you know if she saw the War out with IX would narrow things down a bit, all in all there were 6 aircraft which carried the ID 'J' with IX W4964, NG206, W4197,DV393, ED490 and ED566.

Another option is to have a look here https://www.facebook.com/groups/558447124214499/it is an excellent source of info regarding Bomber Command, reasonably sure there will folk on there who have access to the ORB's for 630 and 227 Squadrons. pointed someone in the direction of this page a week or two ago and think they may have gained some if not all the info they were after. Most of the members are real enthusiasts or people who have a family connection to Bomber Command like myself. Info is freely given and most of the folk are really helpful.

[Merlin 28]

Well have just been through the ORB right up to the end of the War NG206 did 31 ops with IX Squadron the first being the Tirpitz on the 29th Oct 1944 and the last being Hitlers Eagles Nest on the 25th April 1945. So the bomb tally in the picture is way way out unless she did all the ops shown with 630 or 227. So if you are sure she did 31 ops in total they must have all been with IX, so in theory she should show no bomb markings as Tirpitz was her first op, hope that makes sense confusing me self now. Of note is that ND206 was delivered no earlier than July 1944 from Sir W.G. Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft Ltd Bagington to contract acft/239. Delivered to where though I don't know.

11/12/44 Urft Dam. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

17/12/44 Munich. Same Skipper

18/12/44 Battleship “Lutzow” at Gdynia. Same Skipper

1/2/45 Gravenhorst. Same Skipper.

12/1/45 Bergen. Skipper S/Ldr Williams

14/1/45 Leuna. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

16/1/45 Brux. Same Skipper

3/2/45 Ymuiden. Skipper F/O Follet

6/2/45 Altenberken. Same Skipper

14/2/45 Altenberken. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

19/2/45 Bohlem. Skipper F/O Scott

21/2/45 Gravenhorst. Skipper F/O Young

22/2/45 Altenberken. Skipper F/O Harper

24/2/45 Ladbergen. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

3/3/45 Ladbergen. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

6/3/45 Sassnits. Ladbergen. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

7/3/45 Harburg. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

13/3/45 Arnsberg. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

14/3/45 Arnsberg. Skipper F/O Scott

15/3/45 Arnsberg. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

19/3/45 Vlotho. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

22/3/45 Bremen. Skipper F/O Langdon

23/3/45 Bad Ceynhausen. Skipper F/L Taylor

27/3/45 Farge. Skipper F/O Scott

7/4/45 Molbis. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

8/4/45 Lutzkendorf. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

13/4/45 Prince Eugen. Skipper F/O K S Arndell

16/4/45 Pilsen. Skipper F/O Barrowman

19/4/45 Heligoland. Skipper F/L Follet

25/4/45 Berchtesgaden. Skipper F/O K S Arndell (Hitlers Eagles Nest)

Edited January 16, 2016 by Merlin 28

[Vicarage Vee]

Nice work Merlin 28. It is possible that the previous owners didn't record bomb tallies on this plane or that it was repainted before reissue due to an overhaul or something.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Vicarage Vee

[Merlin 28]

Also of note is that 227 Squadron was reformed on the 7th Oct 1944 from the "A Flight" of IX Squadron and the "B Flight" of 619 Squadron and was based at Balderton though still attached to RAF Bardney it was finally disbanded on the 5th September 1945 The Squadron used the code letters "9J", earlier in the War they flew Beaufighters then Halifax. It seems more likely to me that ND206 didn't serve in 227 Squadron until after hostilities ceased and she ended her days there.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Merlin 28

[Merlin 28]

A very talented Corporal Jacky Pattison painted all the nose art on IX Squadron Lancaster's though this didn't usually happen until the aircraft had completed at least 1/2 dozen ops so I would also question whether ND206 carried nose art on this op if indeed it was her first.

[Merlin 28]

Just been doing a little more digging and with the help of a couple of people on another Forum have come up with this.

NG206 did not serve with 630 Squadron all her ops were with IX, and as previously stated she may or may not have served with 227 after hostilities ceased. Have also found another source of info that states she did not serve with 630 "Avro Lancaster The Definitive History" by Harry Holmes page 218.

PS Just been informed she didn't serve with 227 either

Edited January 17, 2016 by Merlin 28

[Mancunian airman]

Merlin you are a wizard (pun intended)

My source was the Harleyford book 'Avro Lancaster by Bruce Robertson which states that NG206 served with 9 Squadron only from October '44 until being scrapped at Tollerton in September 1945.

If the Tirpitz was her first Op. then obviously the artwork on the box is wrong but it is an attractive feature and this helps it to sell.

The fact also that I like the artwork means that I will date the aircraft as having done numerous Ops with the 'Jane' motif on the nose.

The photo in the Harleyford book shows the same as above with 'Jane' and the total of 31 Ops, which you state she undertook whilst serving with 9 squadron

Of course the next question really shouldn't be considered but . . . .

Did she revert back to standard Lancaster configuration, after the Tallboy Ops, and carry a mid-upper turret ???

Plus the exhaust shrouds would have been put back on . . . (Damm it, I have cut mine off)

Ian

Edited January 17, 2016 by Mancunian airman

[Merlin 28]

Pattisons artwork was superb, he was generally regarded as one of the best if not the best nose art creators from the War time period. Regarding whether she reverted back to standard BIII configuration is always going to be open to speculation, personally I would say she stayed as she was at the time of the Tirpitz raid as her last op against Hitlers Eagles Nest was also a Tallboy raid so I think you will be OK.

Am currently building two IX Squadron Lancaster's myself W4964, WS-J after her 5th op (Dusseldorf 11/6/43) bit of a different take on Bardneys most famous Lanc only usually seen modelled after her last op. On this one she took a direct Flak hit over the target whilst flying straight and level for the required 18 seconds after the bombs had gone down she only just managed to get home after this one not only did she lose the use of her turrets but had to make the return journey with open bomb doors which could not be closed and on landing they had to lower the undercart and flaps using the compressed air bottle which acted as back up should there be a hydraulic failure and ED666, WS-G as she was just prior to the second Hamburg fire raid 27/7/43. My Grandfather was the pilot on both occasions.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Merlin 28

[Mancunian airman]

What better reason to build a kite than a family connection.

I too follow a particular squadron, that of 100. I have all the wartime ORB's and really was the first to instigate the Revell Lancaster -- HW-Z as I knew several men that flew in her and had the Mid-upper gunner Sgt Jimmy Johnson describe and tell me of the motif 'Grogs the Shot'. Artwork produced for a book, lead to decals being produced.

I look forward to seeing your 9 Squadron kites, which kits are you using to build them ???

Ian

[Merlin 28]

What a coincidence nice to chat with someone who has a connection.

I to contacted a decal manufacturer (Kitsworld) about doing the decals for ED666, pleasantly surprised when they got back in touch and told me they were going to print them. Will be using the new Airfix kits would liked to have done them in 1/48 but feel the Tamiya kit has to many drawbacks for my limited skills. Quietly hoping someone will do an up to date 1/48 kit in the near future not holding my breath though, but you never know.

Look forward to seeing NG206 Ian.

Stuart

[Merlin 28]

Ian let me know which op you are depicting and I will send you all the crew members and comments from the ORB.

[Mancunian airman]

Ian let me know which op you are depicting and I will send you all the crew members and comments from the ORB.

Stuart

Think I may as well go with the last Op. 25/4/45 Berchtesgaden. Skipper F/O K S Arndell (Hitlers Eagles Nest) he seems to have flown the most Ops in her.

Ian

[Merlin 28]

Quite a crew this four officers, though Arndell was the Pilot. The comments make disappointing reading as they made no attack on the primary target would be reasonable to assume they returned to Bardney without releasing the Tallboy. The info is exactly as it is written in the ORB. Another thing to note Ian was this was the final main force raid of WW2.

Hope this helps, if you change your mind just let me know as I have all the details of the other ops.

Stuart

25/4/45 Lancaster NG206

F/O K C Arndell (A.414983)

P/O H Jones

P/O A D Campbell (NZ.421948)

F/O W H Porter

F/S R Meads

F/S P J Brown

F/S G L Richards

Bombing - Berchtesgaden

Up at 04:24

Down at 12:46

Comments - PRIMARY NOT ATTACKED. This was owing to late identification of direction of run in, and interference from other aircraft. Instructed not to make second rum.

[Mancunian airman]

100 Squadron lead No1 Group into the attack and 'Grogs the Shot', LM739, was the lead aircraft with the Yellow wing tips and rudders applied for this particular attack. (She was 1 of 6 aircraft so marked)

Thanks for the info Stuart.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Is it too late to resurrect this topic?

Lancaster NG206 Jane ... has been one of my favorites ever since I first laid my eyes on its colour profile in Sulzberger's book Second World War more than forty years ago. I must have been four or five back than. Some thirty years ago I bought Matchbox's Lancaster because of attractive box art, unfortunately I still have it stashed together with two Revell's Lancs, acquired more recently. I figure that taking one of the latter as a basis, cannibalise the former for suitable parts and decals (I know, they are of questionable quality, to say the least), and add few AM items would make a nice model.

So ... to make a model of Jane ... on her first mission (Tirpitz bombing) one would have to add bulged bomb bay doors, Tallboy bomb, remove mid-upper turret and use uncovered exhausts. On the photo of the nose art new type of the Pitot tube and Rebecca aerial are also visible. Given that NG206 is relatively late production, could one also assume that fuselage windows had been blanked, blown bombardier's dome was in place, paddle blade propellers had been used and cockpit canopy side windows lacked bulges? I also assume that for the first mission somewhat newish look would be appropriate. I can only hope that nose art had already been painted by that time. What else should I take into account? Regards

Jure