Spitfire Vc No 4 Sqn SAAF KJ-Z "the blue one"

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

http://www.saairforce.co.za/gallery-and-media/89/spitfire-mk-v

Hi All - so I think this is my next build.....well there is a law stating one must build at least one Spit per year.

Now of the course the question seems to be colours - I have conflicting sources on the undersurface as being either Dark Med Blue, or Medium Sea Grey, with the top in either PRU blue, Light med Blue, or of course overall light or dark med blue ( did I miss a combo?!)

Every source states there is documented evidence of this scheme ( so I assume a photo) but i can't find it anywhere.

Any thoughts?

There's also the B type roundels of course - the profiles all seem to go for red centers, but as SAAF units were known for their orange centres - what does anyone think?

Cheers

Jonners

[Graham Boak]

I'd certainly rule out Dark Mediterranean Blue as an underside colour, it is far too dark. To me, you have missed the most likely underside colour, namely Azure Blue.

There is a photograph and another artwork in Steven McLean's The Spitfire in SAAF Service, which shows the upper colour as a medium/light blue, with the underside as a lighter blue. This is reminiscent of the Malta scheme of Light Mediterranean Blue over Azure Blue, which the unit will have seen. However the upper-surface looks considerably lighter than than in photos taken on Malta - LMB isn't that light! The caption describes the aircraft as being in "a high altitude scheme". There are other pictures of SAAF Spitfires in the book, appearing very similar, where the official High Altitude scheme is correctly referred to as Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue. I suspect a lack of tight control over the artist by the author.... but it would have been better had the underside been clearly either lighter or darker than the above.

Orange centres: but of course.

[Charlie Hugo]

Many many years ago I found reference to this aircraft by Dave Bekker, a South African historian. His original drawings and notes indicated an overall light Mediterranean blue and this is how I finished my model many years ago. Subsequently Steve McLean released a book on South African Spitfires and there is a photograph of this aircraft in the book. Quite clearly in a two tone scheme of light upper surfaces and a darker under side. This has been listed as being PRU Blue uppers with MSG under surfaces. This is clearly in contradiction to the photo published. I think the it should be Medium Sea Grey uppers with PRU Blue ( or some other dark(ish) blue) for the under surfaces. This is probably the safe option to choose. Someday I should repaint my Spitfire. There is a note in my article that says the colours are incorrect on the model.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Charlie Hugo

[tonyot]

Nice choice Jonners,

I quite fancy this one myself but I`ve been unsure about the colours myself,.......I`d always assumed PRU Blue undersides with Medium Sea Grey uppers but it could well be blue too,......does this piccy help,.....there were more than one in this strange scheme;

Red fin tip and red spinner,......it certainly looks like MSG/ PRU Blue to me and would make sense.

Cheers

Tony

Edited January 11, 2016 by tonyot

[Giorgio N]

If the aircraft shows lighter uppersurfaces, then I'd go for the high altitude fighter scheme of medium sea grey over PRU blue as the safest bet. This was afterall an official scheme although a Mk.Vc Trop wouldn't really be the aircraft I'd choose to fight at high altitude...

The aircraft in Tony's picture is also interesting, looks like there may have been more than one Vc in this scheme (scheme that on the other hand is seen on several Mk.IX in Italy)

[Graham Boak]

I have to disagree with Charlie Hugo about the photo in McLean's book. My previous comment was that it was not clear what the underside colour was: I was surprised to see him write that it clearly had a darker underside. So I went back again, and most of the underside is in such deep shadow that it simply can't be made out. Not by me, anyway. However if you look under the nose then there is a very light patch: this is the Vokes filter fairing and much lighter than the upper-surface colouring.

Looking into the text, Steven suggests ("It is thought that") the scheme was PRU Blue over Mediterranean Blue, but the colour of the Vokes fairing is very much lighter than either of the Mediterranean Blues, so I suggest Azure Blue - and have to reconsider my comment on lack of editorial control over the artist!

[Charlie Hugo]

Graham is correct, the Vokes filter is definitely a lighter colour than the upper surfaces. Graham is the pale shade not too dark for Azure Blue? Yeah I know black and white photographs My confusion with another Spitfire (a Mk VIII), really should not post from work caused my error. In another book by Steve McLean in which the photo is reproduced but not as darkly as the Spitfire book he refers to this aircraft being in two shades of blue In the Spitfire book he refers to the two colours being PRU Blue on the upper surfaces and Light Mediterranean blue on the under surfaces and then says its a high altitude colour scheme. All very confusing in the end

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi chaps- fantastic info and thoughts on this. I don't suppose theres a pic anyone could send me - the book seems to be long out of print.

Tony O'T - I saw that pic on Tinus Le Roux's site - and wondered if there was a similarity. A Mk Vc with the stubs removed too ?

Cheers - The Thick Plottens it seams.

[Mark12]

Tonally, does this sole Mk VIII of the SAAF help you? Photographed on the delivery run down from Cairo...so African lighting

PeterA

[Mark12]

..and here it is on arrival in South Africa. This image is a composite of 7-10 8mm cine frames stitched together for me by Polish colleagues...and then colour balanced with PSP.

Image:- Peter Arnold

Edited January 11, 2016 by Mark12

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

..and here it is on arrival in South Africa. This image is a composite of 7-10 8mm cine frames stitched together for me by Polish colleagues...and then colour balanced with PSP.

Image:- Peter Arnold

Thanks Peter - not sure sure if it does

but it does prompt the question - why is the Mk VIII in overall PRU blue?!

many thanks for the pics though

Jonners

[JasonC]

How's that for an oil stain!

J.

[Greenshirt]

Tonally, does this sole Mk VIII of the SAAF help you? Photographed on the delivery run down from Cairo...so African lighting

PeterA

With the extended wing tips I would have assumed (I know, dangerous) the High Altitude Scheme of MSG over PRU Blue, not PRU Blue overall.

Tim

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

With the extended wing tips I would have assumed (I know, dangerous) the High Altitude Scheme of MSG over PRU Blue, not PRU Blue overall.

Tim

HI Tim - unless you can't see the colour pic below the BW pic in the next post down - I think we can assume its PRU blue overall

Jonners

[Mark12]

I believe the Spitfire is the high altitude scheme, MSG over PRU Blue.

We see here early colour film that is over saturated combined with African lighting. I could pull the 'blue' further down.

PeterA

Edited January 11, 2016 by Mark12

[Mark12]

Deceptive?

[Greenshirt]

..and here it is on arrival in South Africa. This image is a composite of 7-10 8mm cine frames stitched together for me by Polish colleagues...and then colour balanced with PSP.

Image:- Peter Arnold

HI Tim - unless you can't see the colour pic below the BW pic in the next post down - I think we can assume its PRU blue overall

Jonners

Hi Jonners,

I can see the color photo, but the comment that it was color balanced tells me it may not be the original color(s). The b/w photo appears to have a different color on the underside, slightly darker, as I would expect a MSG over PRU Blue scheme to appear. The color photo does not show the underside at all, really, being in shadow and the color balancing could be off. To my eye on my iPad it doesn't appear natural at all, the yellow prop tips being very saturated, everything having a very blue tint to it. Even the second version posted by mark12 that is less blue and more gray still appears off to me.

I'm not demanding it be the standard scheme of MSG/PRU Blue, just that I'm not convinced it is anything other than the standard scheme, based on these photos. If a better photo with more clarity is shown, clearly showing only a single color, I'm willing to change my mind.

Tim

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Jonners,

I can see the color photo, but the comment that it was color balanced tells me it may not be the original color(s). The b/w photo appears to have a different color on the underside, slightly darker, as I would expect a MSG over PRU Blue scheme to appear. The color photo does not show the underside at all, really, being in shadow and the color balancing could be off. To my eye on my iPad it doesn't appear natural at all, the yellow prop tips being very saturated, everything having a very blue tint to it. Even the second version posted by mark12 that is less blue and more gray still appears off to me.

I'm not demanding it be the standard scheme of MSG/PRU Blue, just that I'm not convinced it is anything other than the standard scheme, based on these photos. If a better photo with more clarity is shown, clearly showing only a single color, I'm willing to change my mind.

Tim

HI Tim - sorry - didnt mean to sound disparaging - I just wondered if for some reason you hadn't seen the colour pic.

I agree with you that it "should" probably be MSG over PRU Blue [edited from Azure cut Im a nitwit] , but tonally the BW pic looks very homogenous - albeit not helped by the deep shadows on the underside ( strong african sun I suppose!)

Cheers

Jonners

[gingerbob]

Hmm, interesting. Other than "logic" I see little evidence to support the suggestion that this VIII is in the high-altitude fighter scheme. And yet, looking at a shot or two (B&W) of VIIs that ARE in that scheme, the VIII in B&W isn't so far off as to make me reject that interpretation. It is, however, very hard for me to see any version of Peter's colour photo as Medium Sea Grey. The fact that this VIII was selected to go to South Africa (why, exactly?) gives me an easy out of "well, odd as the choice may seem, they could well have chosen to do something different with the paint job". I guess one thing I would look at is when it was built and whether the high-altitude scheme was being painted at the factory at that time...

bob

EDIT: No Jon, not "over Azure Blue"!

EDIT again: I'm not changing this post, but turn to page two for exciting developments!

Edited January 12, 2016 by gingerbob

[Etiennedup]

..........and here she is in Cape Town during the Liberty Cavalcade in March1944.

[Mark12]

Hmm, interesting. Other than "logic" I see little evidence to support the suggestion that this VIII is in the high-altitude fighter scheme. And yet, looking at a shot or two (B&W) of VIIs that ARE in that scheme, the VIII in B&W isn't so far off as to make me reject that interpretation. It is, however, very hard for me to see any version of Peter's colour photo as Medium Sea Grey. The fact that this VIII was selected to go to South Africa (why, exactly?) gives me an easy out of "well, odd as the choice may seem, they could well have chosen to do something different with the paint job". I guess one thing I would look at is when it was built and whether the high-altitude scheme was being painted at the factory at that time...

bob

EDIT: No Jon, not "over Azure Blue"!

Bob,

Here is a further clip from the 8mm cine both 'as is saturated' and then colour balanced by eye and the blue caste removed.

...and here a further shot from the Simon Gifford collection. Thin but clearly showing the small but visible tonal variation of the MSG over PRU Blue.

For your interest here is part of the entry for JF294 from our Spitfire Survivors book:-

This Spitfire has been displayed since 1948 and defied identification of its RAF serial for many

years, final confirmation coming from the engine number, A33648/83087, which Graham Trant

had noted on the movements card (Form 78) and which Peter Arnold cross-checked with SAAF

records. Now known to be JF294, it is unusual in a number of respects, being one of only two

Spitfires extant with high-altitude extended wingtips and the only Mk. VIII to serve with the

SAAF. It is the oldest surviving Mk VIII.

JF294 was built by Supermarine at Eastleigh as the 21st Spitfire VIII, with cockpit c/n

6S-238666 and build number 3885. It made its maiden flight on 19 January 1943, being delivered

to No. 33 M.U. at Lyneham before going to Air Service Training Ltd at Hamble in June

1943. It returned to Lyneham the next month, but on 4 August it was sent to No. 82 M.U., where

it was dismantled and packed for overseas shipment, leaving on board the SS Fort Thompson on

14 August and arriving at Casablanca on 1 September. Here it was taken on charge by Middle

East Allied Air Forces on 30 November and its Movements Card (AM Form 78) states that by

December it was serving in India.

Some of the foregoing information is known to be incorrect, JF294 never served in India

(although it may have been originally intended to do so) and log book evidence provided to

the authors by Don Ellis in 1992 showed that his wife, then serving as First Officer Mary Wilkins

of the A.T.A., had flown JF294 from Eastleigh to Colerne on 5 September 1943.

What is not in dispute is that JF294, flown by F/O G. E. Camplin, took off from Egypt

on 3 March 1944, for a high-speed dash to Cape Town at the request of the South African Government,

which wanted a Spitfire for exhibition purposes in a series of recruiting drives known

as the ―Liberty Cavalcades‖.

Painted in Medium Sea Grey upper surfaces with PRU blue under surfaces, JF294 was

fitted with a 90 gallon long-range fuel tank under the centre-section when George Camplin

picked it up at Aboukir. Accompanied by a Lockheed Hudson, which carried spares and an engine

fitter and rigger, he had a week to plan the journey before setting off from ―Kilo 40‖ on the

first leg to Wadi Halfa – some 600 miles and 3 hours away. En route the engine developed an oil

leak which was repaired at Wadi Halfa. Day two saw them set off for Khartoum – 500 miles

away but a snag with the Hudson on their arrival caused another slight delay. Day three saw

them heading 800 miles to Juba where they refuelled before continuing on to Kisumu where they

stopped overnight. Day four took them to Tabora where they refuelled before carrying on to Kasama

where they stopped for lunch and then on to Lusaka – a total of 1,250 miles. Day five saw them make

the short (350 miles) hop to Bulawayo where they night-stopped and then day six

took them on to Pietersburg and Germiston. Day seven was the final day, Bloemfontein to Beaufort

West and then on to their final destination – Cape Town. The total distance was around

5,400 miles.

The ―Cavalcades‖ required Camplin to make demonstration flights and perform aerobatics

over Cape Town before moving on from town to town. Displays were performed at Cape

Town, Bloemfontein, Kimberley, Port Elizabeth, East London, Durban and finally Johannesburg.

At many venues the aircraft was towed into the town and placed on static display – Camplin

having a set of clipped wingtip fairings sent down to replace the extended wingtips to make

the Spitfire easier to manoeuvre when on the ground.

When the ―Cavalcades‖ were over JF294 was allocated to No.11 O.T.U. and took up

the SAAF serial 5501. With the closure of the unit, 5501 was transferred to No.7 Wing in October

1945 where it became the personal aircraft of Col Douglas Loftus and was flown in bare

polished metal finish. Being very much a ―one-off‖ it was decided that JF294 should be transferred

on loan to the South African War Museum with effect from 17 November 1948, and on 9

August 1955, the Museum purchased it for a nominal sum of R32-10 (Sale No. 153).

JF294/5501 has remained in the museum at Saxonwold, near Johannesburg

Edited January 12, 2016 by Mark12

[Graham Boak]

Now those photos do look like MSG over PRU Blue. Combined with the earlier ones, these make a strong warning about relying upon reproductions of contemporary colour films. It also suggests that when in doubt rely upon the Air Ministry standard schemes, which is a little disappointing for the modeller looking for something a bit different.

[Seahawk]

For what it is worth, Ron Bellis illustrates this aircraft in his A Portrait Of Military Aviation in South Africa (p.74). He describes it as in an overall blue colour. In the detailed Notes on The Finish he explicitly refers to and implicitly discounts the high altitude scheme of MSG and PRU Blue but opines that it might have been a variation on it.

"Prior to regulation AP2656A of October 1944, which defined high-altitude fighter colours (Medium Sea Grey upper surfaces and Photo Reconnaissance Unit Blue below), a generalised specification existed, dated December 1942. More than likely the overall PRU Blue finish of JF294 was determined by the latter."

Not sure I quite buy thi handy get-out-of-jail card, not least because I would have though the high altitude scheme was nailed down way before October 1944 (Dec 1942, maybe?).

Nor do i know whether Belling's evidence is eye-witness: a lot of it in the book is.

[Mark12]

Nice choice Jonners,

I quite fancy this one myself but I`ve been unsure about the colours myself,.......I`d always assumed PRU Blue undersides with Medium Sea Grey uppers but it could well be blue too,......does this piccy help,.....there were more than one in this strange scheme;

Red fin tip and red spinner,......it certainly looks like MSG/ PRU Blue to me and would make sense.

Cheers

Tony

Hello Tony,

Can you please confirm the serial of this Mk V?

At this resolution it looks like 'AP583' but I suspect it is AR553.

PeterA

[tonyot]

Hiya Peter,

Your guess is as good as mine as I cannot see it any clearer but I came to the same conclusion as you if that helps? It looks as if something has been overpainted on the nose cowling below the exhausts which could be a Springbok?

Cheers

Tony

Edited January 12, 2016 by tonyot