If Airfix were to re-tool more of their old kits, what should they be?

[MikeR]

On 06/03/2018 at 1:39 PM, Ratch said:

1/600 Bismarck

1/600 Hood

1/600 Admiral Graf Spee

1/600 WW2 Ark Royal

 

Interesting idea, but 1/600 is now considered a "non-standard" scale. If Airfix did stick their heads above the parapet and re-did their ship line it would have to be either 1/700 or 1/350 as that's what's considered normal among the ship modelling fraternity. Arguably Airfix partially shot themselves in the foot doing their Operation Herrick AFV range in 1/48 as opposed to the more widely modelled 1/35. Likewise using 1/32 for cars rather than 1/24. It wouldn't be a great idea to commit the same potential error again.

 

If Airfix do decide to branch out again from aircraft they would be best advised to stick to what are now considered standard scales for each market segment in order to widen their appeal on the international market rather than perpetuate their heritage ones.

 

Mike.

[tonyot]

Fairey Battle

Hawker Hurricane Mk.IIb

Blackburn Buccaneer

Consolidated B-24 Liberator

Handley Page Halifax

North American B-25J Mitchell

Handley Page Hampden

[Ratch]

1 hour ago, MikeR said:

 

Interesting idea, but 1/600 is now considered a "non-standard" scale.

Why should 1/600 scale modellers have to change because the Japanese couldn't choose the correct scale

[zebra]

The 1/72 bombers seem to make sense - in particular I’d go for a B-24 - I reckon that would sell well and we could have a coastal command Liberator at a fraction of Eduard’s price. While I’m on WWII bombers how about the Hampden and Boston?

 

Would love to see the airliners re-done, but  it seems very unlikely. Along similar lines, the 1/72 Islander and Heron, and the F-27 (and a Viscount and 748 to go with it please!)

 

And Canberra in 1/72 and Bucc in 1/72 and 1/48 

 

 

[Plasto]

6 hours ago, Ratch said:

Why should 1/600 scale modellers have to change because the Japanese couldn't choose the correct scale

They picked a scale and then invested heavily in quality tooling to establish it... 

 

Thus investment + Quality = Success.  Business process 101

 

Airfix should consider a re issue the F-80 Shooting Star.  Nice kit that could be  re-issued as is...

Edited March 10, 2018 by Plasto

[Greenshirt]

Battle

Devastator

Dauntless

Spitfire Vb

 

My preference would be that order. More would just...let’s just say I’d throw a party and invite lots of Modelers. Glue sniffing, paint fumes and plastic bits authorized. 

[Plasto]

With this weeks Lexington find a new TBD would make for a timely announcement....

[Ratch]

7 hours ago, Plasto said:

They picked a scale and then invested heavily in quality tooling to establish it... 

And Airfix should invest heavily to re-establish 1/600 (where there is no competition) rather than try to compete in either the scale that is too small or the one that is too big.

[MikeR]

3 hours ago, Ratch said:

And Airfix should invest heavily to re-establish 1/600 (where there is no competition) rather than try to compete in either the scale that is too small or the one that is too big.

 

Too big or too small is in the eye of the beholder!

 

Airfix isn't alone in having a series that's now out of synch with the accepted norm - Heller with their 1/400 range is another example. If Airfix did go for ships again the market would dictate that the range would have to be 1/700 and/or 1/350. If they tried 1/600 again they'd be ploughing a lonely furrow and they'd probably get the same reaction as happened with the Operation Herrick range - "why didn't they do it at the common scale for these things!!!".

 

Ultimately the market is king and a manufacturer has to go along with it if it wants to make money. Yes, they can innovate, but only within the confines of what the market allows.

 

Besides, any new ship kits have to be top-notch quality to compensate for the debacle of the Illustrious and Daring kits!

 

Mike.

[JWM]

Warwick in 1/72 based on new Wellington - this is my fovourite type. But perhaps Battle is more desired by market.

J-W

[shatters]

If airfix was able to make a Ia IIa and Va from the same basic tooling, could they do a Ib  IIb  and Vb the same way ?

 

Phil

[Ratch]

1 hour ago, MikeR said:

Besides, any new ship kits have to be top-notch quality to compensate for the debacle of the Illustrious and Daring kits!

So Airfix might as well give up on ships then. Even when they make them in (your) right scale they're rubbish.

[MikeR]

Please, Ratch - all I'm going to point out is that the quality control in both kits wasn't as good as it could be which affected their buildability. Another mark against the Daring kit is the actual kit design and the resulting build sequence. It's more akin to an aircraft kit rather than what would be considered "the norm" for a ship. Arguably Airfix tried to be a bit too innovative with it's design and it backfired. Now that particular kit is up against it's Trumpeter competitor which is on the whole better engineered and easier to build. It's also still in production whilst the Airfix kit isn't.

 

If Airfix do get back into ships they're up against the Chinese and Japanese manufacturers as the products from those countries are the benchmark. Flyhawk, Trumpeter, Tamiya, Hasegawa etc, etc are going to be tough competition which means Airfix has to be as good as, if not better, than them and at the moment the Hornby Group has other issues to contend with, mostly self inflicted. A niche within a niche, which maritime subjects are, would be too high a risk for them under their current circumstances. It's something for the future perhaps, but Airfix would have to think in terms of the global market rather than restrict themselves purely to the comparatively small UK one. If they went for 1/600 they'd limit themselves even more.

 

Lets just agree to disagree?

 

Either way, this is all hypothetical as we currently have no idea as to what the Hornby Group are going to do. They could well (and probably will!) surprise us!

 

Mike.

Edited March 10, 2018 by MikeR

[grahamwalker]

As mainly a ship modeller 1/600 is DEAD, people have gone to the trouble of making ship masters in 1/600 and there was NOT enough orders to make a run break even.

[hairystick]

On 3/2/2018 at 9:30 AM, wadeocu said:

Further confirmation from the latest Airfix Workbench that the 1/48 Buccaneer is done in:

 

"the tooling for the Buccaneer however, means that it probably won't."

Good.

 

In fact I'll expand on that statement.

 

Good!

[Albeback52]

On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:14 AM, Ratch said:

And Airfix should invest heavily to re-establish 1/600 (where there is no competition) rather than try to compete in either the scale that is too small or the one that is too big.

No. With all due respect, I think you are wrong. As has been pointed out previously, 1/600 scale is now effectively dead. I don't think that Airfix should give up on ships completely but, given that their only recent items  (HMS Illustrious & HMS Daring) were in 1/350 scale, that is perhaps a sign of them accepting that is the sensible choice of scale for any future ship kits?

 

Something else to consider, with ship modellers now generally building in one scale or the other (1/700 or 1/350) then I respectfully suggest that 1/600 would be the "odd man out" scale. No matter how well produced, I don't see too many ship modellers wanting spend their hard earned on something that will be totally out of scale with the rest of their collections. I may be wrong of course.

 

In any case, if I want a ship kit, there are plenty of manufacturers other than Airfix to choose from. Airfix has a great deal of competition to go up against and,they will have to at least equal or, exceed said competition in quality in order to succeed in this area. Given their parent company's current financial predicament, perhaps for now  they are best sticking with what they already produce to keep the money rolling in.

 

I would like to see them diversify the range in future though. Getting back to ships, in the eye of this beholder, 1/700 is certainly "too small" as is 1/144 in aircraft scales!. For the future, I'd prefer Airfix to stick to 1/350 for any additional ship kits.

 

Allan

Edited March 12, 2018 by Albeback52

[Meatbox8]

All 1/72nd (of course)...

 

Buccaneer with options for S1 and S2

Westland Scout with options for Wasp

Spitfire VB with options for IB, IIB and (shock horror) a VC. 

Lighting F1/F1A/F2/F3 (all those groovy 60s colour schemes).

Javelin pen nib version (I know, it was a Heller tooling, but hey) P.S. Of all the myriad versions of the type which they could have built why Heller chose the T.3 is a mystery to me. 

Canberra B.2/6/B(I).6 - Another mystery that they never did this when they released their B(I)8 and PR.9, especially as they DID do one in 1/48th. 

Mirage III

Super Mystere

Hurricane I with metal wings (unbelievable that there isn't a readily available kit of this type).  

And while I'm on the subject of Hurricanes, new tool of their new tool Hurricane II !

 

[RussellE]

11 hours ago, Albeback52 said:

No. With all due respect, I think you are wrong. As has been pointed out previously, 1/600 scale is now effectively dead. I don't think that Airfix should give up on ships completely but, given that their only recent items  (HMS Illustrious & HMS Daring) were in 1/350 scale, that is perhaps a sign of them accepting that is the sensible choice of scale for any future ship kits?

 

Something else to consider, with ship modellers now generally building in one scale or the other (1/700 or 1/350) then I respectfully suggest that 1/600 would be the "odd man out" scale. No matter how well produced, I don't see too many ship modellers wanting spend their hard earned on something that will be totally out of scale with the rest of their collections. I may be wrong of course.

 

In any case, if I want a ship kit, there are plenty of manufacturers other than Airfix to choose from. Airfix has a great deal of competition to go up against and,they will have to at least equal or, exceed said competition in quality in order to succeed in this area. Given their parent company's current financial predicament, perhaps for now  they are best sticking with what they already produce to keep the money rolling in.

 

I would like to see them diversify the range in future though. Getting back to ships, in the eye of this beholder, 1/700 is certainly "too small" as is 1/144 in aircraft scales!. For the future, I'd prefer Airfix to stick to 1/350 for any additional ship kits.

 

Allan

Couldn't agree more! As I've mentioned elsewhere, the market has shifted and 1/600 is now a defunct scale (Sorry). 1/700 and 1/350 are now the dominant scales in ship building and for most salty modellers they will be loathe to change

 

Airfix need to play to the market and the market dictates 1/700 and 1/350. But Airfix also need to work in their own niche! IMHO that niche should be modern RN. Re-issue the Type 45 alongside an updated Illustrious release, so that she can be modeled as her sisters at various time periods.

 

Then release a 1/700 Queen Elizabeth class kit (easier to sell/tool) then follow this on with 1/350 version for the hardcore salties, 1/350 Type 26 and 31 frigates along with the River class OPV's Batch 1 and 2.

 

Slightly off topic I know, but the re-issue of the Type 45 and Illustrious needs to play into expanding the 1/350 range with new tools as well

Edited March 12, 2018 by RussellE

[Rabbit Leader]

1 hour ago, Meatbox8 said:

All 1/72nd (of course)...

 

Buccaneer with options for S1 and S2

Westland Scout with options for Wasp

Spitfire VB with options for IB, IIB and (shock horror) a VC. 

Lighting F1/F1A/F2/F3 (all those groovy 60s colour schemes).

Javelin pen nib version (I know, it was a Heller tooling, but hey) P.S. Of all the myriad versions of the type which they could have built why Heller chose the T.3 is a mystery to me. 

Canberra B.2/6/B(I).6 - Another mystery that they never did this when they released their B(I)8 and PR.9, especially as they DID do one in 1/48th. 

Mirage III

Super Mystere

Hurricane I with metal wings (unbelievable that there isn't a readily available kit of this type).  

And while I'm on the subject of Hurricanes, new tool of their new tool Hurricane II !

 

I echo your comments Meatbox in addition to being equally mesmerised as to why certain 1/72 subjects have been (up to now) avoided - fish bowl Canberra, tin wing Hurricane and new Spitfire Vc. These kits in addition to a new tool Harvard/Texan are IMO as close to being the equivalent of plastic cash cows as anything else.  The Mirage III is another no brainer as the current  best in market 1/72 kit is as pricey as a new good quality 1/48 Mirage kit? 

 

Time will tell I suppose, but perhaps had these kits rolled out a few years ago, the current financial situation may not have been as dire (purely speculative on my behalf). 

 

I realise its a tricky and fickle business and although I have and like the Swift how many Series 3 Mirages do you think would have sold in comparison? 

 

Cheers.. Dave (who just wants to see Airfix live on). 

[Meatbox8]

8 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

I echo your comments Meatbox in addition to being equally mesmerised as to why certain 1/72 subjects have been (up to now) avoided - fish bowl Canberra, tin wing Hurricane and new Spitfire Vc. These kits in addition to a new tool Harvard/Texan are IMO as close to being the equivalent of plastic cash cows as anything else.  The Mirage III is another no brainer as the current  best in market 1/72 kit is as pricey as a new good quality 1/48 Mirage kit? 

 

Time will tell I suppose, but perhaps had these kits rolled out a few years ago, the current financial situation may not have been as dire (purely speculative on my behalf). 

 

I realise its a tricky and fickle business and although I have and like the Swift how many Series 3 Mirages do you think would have sold in comparison? 

s.. Dave (who just wants to see Airfix live on). 

Thanks Dave.  I quit agree.  They seem no brainer types that would be steady sellers but no mainstream manufacturer seems interested.

 

Cheers, Tim

[VMA131Marine]

On 3/10/2018 at 8:21 AM, MikeR said:

Please, Ratch - all I'm going to point out is that the quality control in both kits wasn't as good as it could be which affected their buildability. Another mark against the Daring kit is the actual kit design and the resulting build sequence. It's more akin to an aircraft kit rather than what would be considered "the norm" for a ship. Arguably Airfix tried to be a bit too innovative with it's design and it backfired. Now that particular kit is up against it's Trumpeter competitor which is on the whole better engineered and easier to build. It's also still in production whilst the Airfix kit isn't.

 

If Airfix do get back into ships they're up against the Chinese and Japanese manufacturers as the products from those countries are the benchmark. Flyhawk, Trumpeter, Tamiya, Hasegawa etc, etc are going to be tough competition which means Airfix has to be as good as, if not better, than them and at the moment the Hornby Group has other issues to contend with, mostly self inflicted. A niche within a niche, which maritime subjects are, would be too high a risk for them under their current circumstances. It's something for the future perhaps, but Airfix would have to think in terms of the global market rather than restrict themselves purely to the comparatively small UK one. If they went for 1/600 they'd limit themselves even more.

 

Lets just agree to disagree?

 

Either way, this is all hypothetical as we currently have no idea as to what the Hornby Group are going to do. They could well (and probably will!) surprise us!

 

Mike.

Flyhawk is really setting the standard in 1/700. I just got the new HMS Prince of Wales limited edition kit and it is fabulous. The Tamiya 1/700 PoW is nowhere close to the level of detail and finesse shown on the Flyhawk kit.

[VMA131Marine]

2 hours ago, Meatbox8 said:

All 1/72nd (of course)...

 

Hurricane I with metal wings (unbelievable that there isn't a readily available kit of this type).  

And while I'm on the subject of Hurricanes, new tool of their new tool Hurricane II !

 

The lack of a decent 1/72 metal-winged Hurricane Mk.I is astounding. I think the 1960s era Revell kit is still in production, but not the Hasegawa or Airfix 1970's issued kit. The Hasegawa has problems with the shape of the nose anyway. There has yet to be a Hurricane Mk.I with the tropical filter issued as a complete kit in 1/72. Airfix has all the research done so it seems like a no-brainer for them to do it sooner or later.

[Meatbox8]

7 minutes ago, VMA131Marine said:

The lack of a decent 1/72 metal-winged Hurricane Mk.I is astounding. I think the 1960s era Revell kit is still in production, but not the Hasegawa or Airfix 1970's issued kit. The Hasegawa has problems with the shape of the nose anyway. There has yet to be a Hurricane Mk.I with the tropical filter issued as a complete kit in 1/72. Airfix has all the research done so it seems like a no-brainer for them to do it sooner or later.

Agreed.  I've never seen the Hasegawa kit for sale anywhere and the Revell model, while not as bad as their P-51D (an abomination that they really shouldn't still be marketing), is well wide of the mark if memory serves me right.  There's no shortage of Mk2s out there, which is great of course, but the Mk1 is as iconic an aircraft as the Spit Mk1, particularly because of its involvement in the Battle of Britain.  I must say I was really pleased that Airfix produced a fabric winged version, which is a beautiful kit, but bearing in mind that there is to be a massive RAF anniversary in a couple of weeks it would have been great if they'd managed to get out a proper Battle of Britain Hurricane in time.  Seems like a missed opportunity.  I would very much like a Mk1 with a tropical filter as I'd like to build Imshi Mason's aircraft. 

[Wez]

8 hours ago, Meatbox8 said:

Of all the myriad versions of the type which they could have built why Heller chose the T.3 is a mystery to me. 

All the squadrons had a T.3 so it offered more marking options and potentially more sales?  Unfortunately, the aftermarket decal manufacturers didn't follow Heller's logic.

[Troy Smith]

13 hours ago, Meatbox8 said:

Hurricane I with metal wings (unbelievable that there isn't a readily available kit of this type).  

And while I'm on the subject of Hurricanes, new tool of their new tool Hurricane II !

 

 

the 'new tool' Mk.II was a testament to how many bad Hurricane drwaings there are.... in respectable books, EG the FK Mason ones.

 

11 hours ago, VMA131Marine said:

The lack of a decent 1/72 metal-winged Hurricane Mk.I is astounding. I think the 1960s era Revell kit is still in production, but not the Hasegawa or Airfix 1970's issued kit. The Hasegawa has problems with the shape of the nose anyway. There has yet to be a Hurricane Mk.I with the tropical filter issued as a complete kit in 1/72. Airfix has all the research done so it seems like a no-brainer for them to do it sooner or later.

 

Airfix have done flawed research,   I'm still annoyed that I didn't go over the 72nd fabric wing kit more closely, as they scaled up it's faults to 1/48th....

 

the big problem is the wing to fuselage join,  lacking the correct curve on the fuselage to wing access panels,  but the fuse is slightly too long., from what I can see this is in front of the fin, making the fuselage look to slim here. 

Neither of these faults are easy to correct.   While they do not jump out and scream wrong faults,  they are noticeable.  

 

In 72nd they are not as obvious as 48th. 

 

the 48th also has a weird construction method,  adding the cockpit to the lower wing has caused problems,  and poor moulding has led to fit issues on several builds here.  

 

The separate ailerons are way too thick,  and being one pice are thus hard to correct without very careful cutting, rebuilding or a replacement.

it also has balloon tyres, try fitting one through the wheel well opening to see what I mean...

the 72nd has a too high canopy, making the windscreen look off.

 

I have yet to find out if the only specific replacement for the Airfix 72nd (Rob Taurus) fixes this or just copies the problem for the replacement.

a couple of other funny glitches I found in the 72nd kits, the control column handle is closer to 1/48th,  and the seat is really narrow in width.... not immediately obvious, but once spotted,  they look very odd.

 

At this point there will be folks reading 'get a life'    but consider the above list  in  the context  a new tool Spitfire or Bf109 kit......cue  pages of flaming threads about the sky falling...

 

in the kits favour,   they have very well done fabric, no skinny cow here.  sensible use of a separate lower rear fuselage, eliminating bad joins and stuffed fabric,   very good wheel wells and UC leg detail and cockpits (apart from seat).

 

which is why I said earlier ACCURATE new tool, without silly gimmicks in 1/72nd and 1/48th

 

11 hours ago, Meatbox8 said:

  I've never seen the Hasegawa kit for sale anywhere and the Revell model, while not as bad as their P-51D (an abomination that they really shouldn't still be marketing), is well wide of the mark if memory serves me right.  There's no shortage of Mk2s out there, which is great of course, but the Mk1 is as iconic an aircraft as the Spit Mk1, particularly because of its involvement in the Battle of Britain.  I must say I was really pleased that Airfix produced a fabric winged version, which is a beautiful kit,

 

the Hase nose is fixable,  the fuselage fabric is less appealing...  but yes, hard too find, and blinkin expensive if the UK when you do.

which Revell?  the 60's era Mk.I is vile.  The MK.II's are not great.

 

While there are lots of Mk.II kits, they all have varying levels of faults,  maybe the best commonly available are the Az/Legato,  and they are limited run, and need care to get a good fit and are IIc's or IV's only.

 

The old Heller kit has very neat fabric effect, but raised lines,  and too narrow nose and too broad out wings,  from my initial hacks, fixable. againa IIc only, but if yuo correct it then changing the wing paneling is not that big a job.

 

the Academy and Revell Mk.II's have a series of difficult to correct faults,  as well as stuffing up the fuselage fabric,  which correcting is such a large job to do well

the 'new tool' Airfix IIC is maybe the worst of the lot,  having so many shape errors.

 

so.... no,   as i said earlier,  or maybe more clearly, we need an ACCURATE  and modern tooling of pretty much every Hurricane in 72nd and 48th.   something that can be built OOB without need replacement parts please.

 

Oddly enough there is a company who have done a overall accurate OOB Hurricane.... Trumpeter,  but only in 1/24th...  apart from a few small glitches and these damn trendy recessed rivets... though Hobby Boss didn't scale it down to 1/72nd  for the easy build kit, too narrow nose over engine and no real wheel wells aside it's not bad.

 

Airfix did it with the new tool 1/48th Spit Vb/I kits (apart from the sily UC leg attachment)

 

But frankly, given the companies predicament,   and the fact they have new tool 72nd and 48th Hurricanes that satisfy most,   I don't see one anytime soon from Airfix.

or anyone.  

 

poor old Hurricane,  still  overshadowed by  the more glamorous companion....