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Royal Navy Westland Whirlwind colours?


AMB

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Can anyone give me the definitive shade of blue that Royal Navy Whirlwinds were painted in during the 1950s-60s? I have seen several variations painted on models varying from near grey to dark blue? Some quote them as ‘ Oxford Blue’ and others as ‘RAF blue-grey’? I always thought the latter was correct, but do you have any definitive answer please? Perhaps early ones were ‘Navy Blue/Oxford Blue’ and they changed to ‘RAF Blue grey’, but if so, when?

Thanks

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According to 'British Service Helicopters' they were RAF Blue Grey.

Thanks - well we have two differing answers now. I always thought they were akin to the same colour RAF vehicles were painted - blue-grey.

Graham may not like the term' RAF blue-grey', but that is an official name for BSC 381C -633.

Edited by AMB
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According to AP (Air Publication) 119A-0601-1E, issued June 1969 (later amended June 1972) the Basic colour of Royal Naval Helicopters is RAF Blue Grey - not further defined in that document as far as I can see but BS381C 633 is called 'RAF Blue Grey'. This also mentions top surfaces of Anti-Submarine Helicopters being Yellow (not further defined) and nose and part of tailcone/rear fuselage of SAR helicopters being fluorescent red-orange.

'Fleet Air Arm Helicopters Since 1943' (Air-Britain (Historians) Ltd, ISBN 978-0-85130-304-8) further bears this out on page 340, referencing Admiralty Fleet Order (AFO) 2573/57 issued in 1957, which also mentions the Golden Yellow uppersurfaces for Anti-Submarine Helicopters.

The earliest Whirlwinds however were Sikorsky-built HO4S-3s, which entered service in March 1954 and would have been finished in US Navy Gloss Sea Blue (ANA 623). (from 'Fleet Air Arm Helicopters...' again).

The same book indicates that Anti-Submarine Whirlwinds (post 1957), Wessexes, Wasps and Sea Kings were all initially RAF Blue/Grey, and Lynxes were the odd one out in initially being Oxford Blue (BS381C 105).

Tim

Edited by TimV1969
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Thanks - well we have two differing answers now. I always thought they were akin to the same colour RAF vehicles were painted - blue-grey.

Graham may not like the term' RAF blue-grey', but that is an official name for BSC 381C -633.

They were painted the same colour as RAF Vehicles RAF Blue grey BS 633. As an aside, what people do not realise that the RAF used two Blues, dedicated airfield vehicles and ground equipment were painted Traffic Blue BS 169. BS 633 was used by other vehicles but there was a great degree of crossover in use between the two colours.

Selwyn

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Hang on: I never said that I disliked the term RAF Blue Grey - nothing wrong with it at all, if properly used. I said that I'd been told, more than once, that the colour was Oxford Blue and not anything else. I used my last sentence to cast some doubt on whether this had always been the case.

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Thanks guys.

I have been referred to the excellent Air-Britain book " Fleet Air Arm Helicopters since 1943", as mentioned by Tim V. In it is the definitive answer which most of you I'm pleased to say agree with.

The original Sikorsky-built Whirlwinds were delivered to the Fleet Air Arm in US Navy Sea Blue Gloss. In 1957 a directive came from MoD to repaint them in BS.318C-633 RAF Blue-Grey, those in certain roles with a yellow top.

The use of 'Oxford Blue' is a myth and was not painted on any FAA helicopters until the Lynx entered service in the '70s.

Fingers crossed. my Warpaint book on the type about to be published will be accurate

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The problem could have arisen from the use of "Oxford blue" as a synonym for any dark shade, without meaning to refer to a specific BSC colour. Much like "sky blue" undersides in WW2.

That is highly likely, generic colour naming can be challenging to a researcher! Well said that man!

.. . Kes

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  • 2 months later...

This is a subject dear to my heart as I am intending to do both an early RN Whrilwind and a Wessex Has 1. So....which Humbro; number would be best for the 'blue' in these aircraft?

I don't think any of Humbrol's colours are suitable out the tin/bottle although I did have several bottles of duff H123 a few years back that were close (too light nd blue for EDSG).

I have used Xtracolour RAF Blue-Grey in the past and it seems to match the many Dragonflies, Wasps, Whirlwinds,Wessexes and Sea Kings at the Yeovilton, Doncaster and Weston-S-Mare museums very well.

FredT

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This is a subject dear to my heart as I am intending to do both an early RN Whrilwind and a Wessex Has 1. So....which Humbro; number would be best for the 'blue' in these aircraft?

Humbrol used to have RAF blue-grey in their range as no.134. Long ago discontinued, unfortunately.

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Thank you gentlemen for your answers. If no Humbrol match, which is the closest representation of the blue in these aircraft?

I only said Humbrol because that's what I use, being relatively new to this game. However I'm willing to try new things if it improves my skills and knowledge.

Regards

M-M

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I guess we are all hesitating to answer, because whatever you choose, once you finish it will not be right in someone's mind, possibly even yours.

The problem you have is that it really isn't a blue, but a blue grey that looks dark blue in some photographs and under many poor lighting conditions (there is an proper term for this effect but I can't remember it). Close up it is definitely a grey, but further way you can't be sure. Even at 1/72 scale, the Xtracolour paint has this same "chameleon" quality, which is why I use it. Other paints may not, so your choice probably depends on whether you want it to look blue or grey.

Just to confuse things I suspect (but am not sure) that some of the Wessex 5 SAR aircraft may actually have been a dark "Oxford" blue. Most RN helicopters of that era would also be a gloss coat (at least at the start of a deployment!), which complicates things as the paint will be even more affected by the surrounding lighting - a matt coat would lighten the colour and add the blue you want, but isn't right (worn and matted museum machines look very light blue):

wpef3dfc86_05_06.jpg

"Humphrey" is perhaps a better preserved example and I could see Extra Dark Sea Grey working here:

wp39ef51e5_05_06.jpg

So: personally, if I were pushed, wasn't willing to mix up my own colours and could only use Humbrol (enamels), I would probably err more toward grey than blue and try the Humbrol 123 (Extra Dark Sea Grey), see how it looks and ignore anyone who says it is wrong (but then I have a very thick skin!).

But if you really prefer blue, try Humbrol Oxford Blue (104) and see how that looks. Somewhere between the two is about right I reckon.

HTH

FredT

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Gengriz,

You're a gentleman. Thank you for your reply. I'm gathering all the kits, bits and pieces together for some of my future projects. 'She who has to be obeyed' has said that I can ".....model as much as I like for as long as I like......once the house has been renovated...." !

So at the moment I have exchanged my milliput for cement, my brushed are 2" wide and my paint is being mixed in 1 litre tins !

All being well I can start modelling at the end of the summer.

Regards

M - M

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Having a very large scale copy of a blueprint...for 'finishing' purposes, of a Westland Wessex HAS Mk.1...upon which was accidentally spilled...in 1963/4...the actual paint variant: I shall sell at a very handsome price...paint chips to the highest bidder!!!! Wha...?

But seriously...Oxford Blue is the original service application on 814/815 Wessex. (815 being the 1st, and Boyd Trophy winner, with the Wessex HAS Mk.1 in 1962)

Later Whirlwinds may have succumbed to the 'gradual/immediatisation' of the Battle of Britain success decades before, from which the dictat that all FAA successes were to be attributed to the 'RAF Red Arrows' naval aerobatic team...if only in name alone but certainly not by colour. (?)

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"Humphrey" is perhaps a better preserved example and I could see Extra Dark Sea Grey working here:

wp39ef51e5_05_06.jpg

So: personally, if I were pushed, wasn't willing to mix up my own colours and could only use Humbrol (enamels), I would probably err more toward grey than blue and try the Humbrol 123 (Extra Dark Sea Grey), see how it looks and ignore anyone who says it is wrong (but then I have a very thick skin!).

But if you really prefer blue, try Humbrol Oxford Blue (104) and see how that looks. Somewhere between the two is about right I reckon.

Fred, I may be misunderstanding what you are saying but isn't Humphrey's finish as preserved a red herring? Surely it IS in Falklands-era EDSG overall.

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Humphrey must surely be whatever the lower colour was before Antrim sailed? The flight painted out the yellow top, white in the roundels etc en route south, and they'd have had RAF blue grey available to maintain the lower part of the (peacetime) scheme. There is no way they'd have somehow demanded a different blue shade from Naval stores and had it delivered. They just painted. See also photos of 800 & 801 Sea Harriers undergoing a similar "local" paint job en route (different colour in their case, but same principle), and the contrast with the later additions from 809, which had been through a proper paint job at Yeovilton - and were a much lighter grey.

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For my Sea King below, I mixed up my own brew with Xtracrylix PRU Blue and Gloss Sea Blue to get what I thought looked close to RAF Blue/ Grey. As Fred, says it was striking that up close to the real things in Cobham Hall at Yeovilton, how grey the Blue/ Grey looks as opposed to blue (if that makes any sense at all!!).

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/49387-sea-king-has2-820-nas/

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