thepureness Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Looking really for a Halifax specialist here I've got the latest Revell Halifax B III kit in 1/72 scale and something doesn't quite seem right with the wings, I am under the impression the Halfiax B III had clipped wings, like below in the Airfix painting diagram http://www.model-making.eu/zdjecia/7/5/1/7286_rs_2_AFX06008A_4.jpg But Revell show the longer wings for the same mark of aircraft http://www.model-making.eu/zdjecia/2/0/1/9811_2_rev04936_7.jpg This has me a little confused, i'm doing some research online, but if someone knows the answer here then great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 You're right to some extent, B.III's originally had the square tipped wings but later in their production they changed over to the longer spanned, round wing tips. This is Graham Boak's area of special interest, I'm sure he'll be along to clarify in a bit. Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicarage Vee Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Wez has the answer for you. Original production was with the existing short-span wings and the various manufacturers introduced the longer span wing in later production, the first being in autumn 1943, with considerable overlap of both types in production even from the same manufacturer it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cees Broere Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 And aircraft were also retrofitted in the field. Cees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 A couple of points: not autumn 1943 as this preceded the entry into service. Perhaps autumn 1944? Merrick does have a photo of round wingtips on "Oscar" HX318, lost April 1944, which is an argument for an earlier introduction, but I think this is actually a later "Oscar". (The argument was made on an earlier Halifax thread, excuse me for not digging it out.) I don't know of any retrofits, but these can't have been common as postwar photos do show the square tips on aircraft - not that many Mk.IIIs lasted long postwar anyway. Memory is slipping a cog here, but isn't one of the Revell examples actually a Mk.VI? If so, you'll need to swap one exhaust around to the other side of the nacelle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicarage Vee Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Hello Graham, apparently not though. According to Ken Merrick (p110-111 of his 2009 book) the first Mk IIIs were issued to squadrons in November 1943 (some of the movement cards indicate October delivery to the initial recipients), which is correct because the first write off in squadron service happened that month on 466 Sq) and the extended wingtips entered the production line at Handley Page at around the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) However, this comment by Merrick is based upon his identifying of the aircraft on P116 as HX318, which was indeed an early Mk.III built late in 1943. However, as I wrote above, I don't believe that he has correctly identified the individual airframe and that this photo should be dated considerably later. The unit (424 Sq.) had the habit of retaining the aircraft names, which were linked to the individual aircraft identity letter, So there was more than one Oscar, and the number of missions shown on P116 is considerably greater than can have been flown by HX318, as shown by checking the missions flown by 424 Sq. in Middleton's Bomber Command War Diaries. (I also believe that a close study of the photo will show a serial beginning in L, but I haven't got my magnifying glass handy - and perhaps it was another printing of the photo anyway?) Edited January 4, 2016 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicarage Vee Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I wouldn't argue with your conclusion regarding HX318 Graham, that apparent misinformation is shared with Clarence Simonsen's nose art book. I must confess, I had always been under the impression that the extended wingtips came towards the end of the Mk III production, most definitive pictures appear to be dated from September 1944 onwards or show backgrounds consistent with winter or autumn. Victor Bingham's book is also non committal about dates. It would be interesting to know the number of the modification and its introduction and also the dates of the Boscombe Down tests. The confounding factors of course include that it is difficult to know if an aircraft has been retrofitted or not as some, e.g. LV920, which entered squadron service in March '44, might have them in a picture that is most probably autumn 1944. Also, the overwhelming number of 1944 dated photos have original wing tips so the introduction would have had to be very gradual. This would seem to be a question for some further archival research to be certain, but yes, it would seem that the earliest positively dated photos are around September 1944 in squadron service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Thinking in terms of production, I don't go with it being very gradual. Once the jigs have been set up to make the new wingtips then they'd have been put into use. The new tips would have replaced the earlier design in a fairly rapid change-over, on any particular production line. Yes, there may be the odd few "out of sequence" at the time of the change-over, but not a lot. There could then be delays as the other companies come into line, depending perhaps on just how their stocks of the old wingtips remained. I don't have a date for their introduction - and I still don't know of evidence for retrofitting - but agree that photo evidence suggests widespread service not much sooner than summer 1944. One strong hint I can find is that the first B Mk.VII was delivered 16th June 1944. So if HP built any Mk.IIIs with the bigger tips, they must have been before this. We do have LV776 and LV838 from the last B Mk.III run built as Mk.VIs with the first flying 28.2.44., so it could be that the new tips were generally introduced that early - or these could simply have been hand-built examples for trials. It is always possible that a short batch was hand-built preceding the production jigs, and these ended up on the odd Mk.III ahead of the main batch ... but this is just guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 This is great info gentlemen. Question if I may please regards these wings. If I have the Revell kit with the longer, rounded wingtip wings, but need to build it with the earlier square tips, is it just a matter of removing plastic to achieve the correct profile, or are other changes required? PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Do you have a plan of the shape you want? Offhand, I'd say yes do just that, but then I am currently trimming a set of Mustang tailplanes down to replace a missing Ar.96 tailplane. The only problem I'd foresee is the precise shape of the light housings at the leading and trailing edges. This may need a little attention - hence the need for a plan (or an earlier Halifax kit part). But on the other hand, why bother? The relevant short-wing parts are available on the runners for the Mk.III kit - look for parts 144-150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Doesn't the B.III kit have the short wing tips included? Are the not on the sprue with the fuselage halves and ailerons? http://www.scalemodellingnow.com/hnaircraftkits-revell-handley-page-halifax-bmk3 Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europapete Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 You might want to contact the yorkshire air museum. They built a halifax and have all the required info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicarage Vee Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Cees is also a man to consult, especially where the front end is concerned http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?89634-Halifax-Cockpit-Project Edited January 5, 2016 by Vicarage Vee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Thanks guys - didn't realise there were both options in the kit. PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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