CrazyCrank Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Hello Guys Olivier, while you're waiting for an answer, you can look this diagram i've just found on the net, from smcars.net And you can see that the cooling system at the top of the engine has been drawn, but not looms. It has been impossible for me to find the source of this diagram....Fiat ? Just to stimulate discussion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Congratulations Thierry, even if this doc does not bring a sure answer to the question we are wondering, 1) in the context of so few docs about this car, any picture, any information is welcome 2) don't you think if there were collector tubes, they would have been represented? At this time, no answer to my question to Bill. In the lack of answer, and in the doubt, I think I won't build these collectors... Thank you for the stimulation Olivier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCrank Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Olivier On the drawing you showed me by PM, a front view of the engine, there was nor watercooling pipes, nor loom...the doubt existed: Had the designer wanted to simplify the diagram, not representing these two details, either had he forgotten the one or the other or both ? On this diagram i found this morning, the watercooling system is represented, and not the loom for the spark plugs wires. I don't think, really, that it is an oversight. Very happy to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, CrazyCrank said: Hello Guys Olivier, while you're waiting for an answer, you can look this diagram i've just found on the net, from smcars.net And you can see that the cooling system at the top of the engine has been drawn, but not looms. It has been impossible for me to find the source of this diagram....Fiat ? Just to stimulate discussion Hi Guys, At the risk of repeating myself; it's not uncommon for people to draw plans from models and add some guesswork! It would not surprise me if this was drawn from our model. I know this, as when I trained as a technical illustrator we used Tamiya 1/12th F1 cars for reference for cutaway drawings!!! I personally wouldn't trust any plans found on the net - I can vouch for this from my own struggle to find accurate data on a scratchbuild project. Having said that, this drawing has always interested me, as I believe the draughtsman has drawn the steering idler arm correctly (unlike the kit part!). He may of had more information, or maybe, just a bit of general mechanical knowledge. The arm picks up from the horizontal steering box rod dead centre to the axle line, which I believe is correct. It allows equal steering in either direction and minimises side arcing of the steering rod. Build it as per the kit and things get ugly very quickly! Olivier, check out the photo I posted early in the thread with the Fiat 6 cylinder engine...I can't see tube work for the plug leads even though , as you suggest, it was in common use back then. Edited October 12, 2016 by vontrips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Hi guys, hi John, your point of view is very interesting, but unfortunately, does not help us to make a decision about these tubes. I have been seeing again the photo you posted on 31/12/2015 (p.2 of the thread) of the 6 cylinder engine, but I don't see, on this photo, the ignition wiring and connectors, so, how to know? Thierry sent me on MP photos of several cars of this period, including the Fiat that won the G.P in 1907 (kit Pocher), that had these tubes. The 1924 Mef had them too... All this does not prove the Fiat 806 had them too, but it is at least not improbable, don't you think? I did not get any answer up to now from the American model maker who made them. I'm afraid we will have to make a decision without being sure... All the best Olivier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 (edited) P.S: I have finished respoking my 4 wheels. I have removed the valves, too short and too large, and made new ones, with 0,75 mm Evergreen rod (lenght 3,2 mm), inspired by this photo of the Mef wheel (see below). I painted flat black the valve and X-11 enamel the plug. This week-end, I will finish assembly (by cement) of the different parts of each wheel, and, waiting for the resin "Protar" tyres ordered from John, will work on the connectors and other parts of the 14th step. Nice week-end to all Edited October 15, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph error 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 (edited) Can't these 806 tyres be 3D-printed for those who can't get hold of the right format tyres in another way (also intending to get some pressure off VonTrip's tyre moulds )? I've seen great results in 3D-printed tyres, see for example these posts: - The drawing. - The printed tyre - Dryfit of the tyre. - Close-up. - The photo-realistic end result of the full scratch build. That's 1/24th scale, imagine what can be done in 1/12th scale. Maybe one of you technical guys can draw the tyre in a 3D-program for everyone interested to download and have 3D-printed. You don't have to have a 3D-printer for that, heck even if I had one (of cheaper nature) I'd still have it printed through a high-quality machine. There's an extensive worldwide network of individuals and companies running these printers. For example, there are 32 service providers in the city of Amsterdam alone. For these one-off jobs this is ideal. See 3DHubs.com. Edited October 15, 2016 by Roy vd M. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 (edited) Sooner or later we need to look closer at this 3D printing... better sooner than later... Thank you Roy, will look into this next week.... am back home Edited October 15, 2016 by sharknose156 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Maybe yes. I'm not saying 3D-printing should be done with every single bit that needs to be scratchbuilt, but an incredibly difficult to scratch build item like a tyre (let alone four) that is even more incredibly difficult to find -after Protar's demise and Italeri's refusal to give their customers what they pay for-, this might be a solution for several modelers who intend to use the type-correct tyres. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptcruiser Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I attended a trade show at the NEC a couple of weeks ago dedicated to 3D printing. My conclusions were that the type of machines required for our desired results are only in the realm of the professionals. Think Shapeways in the US where they have a number of different sorts of machines and having seen some recent products from them they are superb. The Hobbyist, at this point in time will not be satisfied with the results we would achieve from the "budget" end of the market ( "Trade" machines can range from a few thousand GBP to millions!). Additionally, there are finishing tools still required to remove the striations we are familiar with. The secret, however, is in the preparation of the artwork for the machines to print from. This is a new skill for many modellers, and they need to be produced in some form of CAD and then converted into the file format required. Degrees of accuracy are also a consideration, and the higher the accuracy the larger the file size. There are modellers out there with the requisite skills, and there are service providers for both printing and 3D scanning. Pays your money, takes your choice..... Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I fully agree with you @ptcruiser. I don't understand why modelers would purchase low-budget 3D-printers (I know some who have), safe for practicing purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 On the subject of 3D printing, I don't wish to come across as if I am the expert, I am not. However I have printed a number of items so can offer the following observations. Background - I have used Shapeways occasionally. Service has always been excellent. I have printed a variety of things: some 1mm hex bolts, an approx 1/32 scale 312T body, the ferral (I think that's what its called) for an umbrella. In all cases I used the nylon material they offer. The results were excellent but not without limitations, which I'll cover below. As I have said elsewhere, I have also had one of my car shell models "printed" (though actually milled from blocks of solid foam) at 1:1 to great effect. The process I used is: Draw the part in a free surface modelling package called Blender (other tools are available). Not always easy or right (as the 312T demonstrated - hence the approximate qualifier) - depends on modelling skill and availability of good references. Practice mitigates the former - the latter is an ongoing issue. Add thickness - Blender models a perfect infinitesimally thin surface that would be a bit difficult to print. The designer has to add thickness manually. Blender can help but in the end I did it myself. Check the mesh for printability using the Blender "3D Tools" add-in. This ensures there are no flaws in the mesh such as holes unlinked sections etc. Output the mesh in a printable format (usually STL) Upload to your printer service of choice, pick a material (more below) and use the online tools they provide to check printability. Again the 312T was a nightmare because I wanted it to look crisp and sharp. It took at least half a dozen iterations of steps 3-5 before it passed. Pay the money and wait with great expectation for you beautiful work to appear. Material choice - There are many materials ranging from CA/mineral through all sorts of plastic, many engineering metals and into precious metals. As I said above I used nylon exclusively for the following reasons. It offers the best surface resolution apart from acrylic. It is cheap. I didn't use acrylic because I felt it would be too brittle. However acrylic is potentially a good choice for the sort of thing you are discussing above (again I will discuss further below). I would love to print with the metals but 10x on cost triggers the miser in me. Results - I was surprised with the objects I got back. I had thought of nylon as a soft homogeneous material. However, the 3-D printed form is hard, more like polystyrene and reverberates like a shell when tapped on a hard surface if that makes sense. The surface finish is quite rough. The 312T looked superb (it was just the wrong size and shape - a modelling error on my part!), with just a fine linear grain like wood. The bolts and ferral were much more grainy, like sandstone. The bolts in particular were right at the limit of what was possible with the material. Conclusions - I have been really happy with the results I got but it does highlight the care needed to pick the right material. Let's also be clear, nylon is nylon. It does not paint well and does not stick well. Neither were issues in the applications I had - it does melt so I rivetted the bolts on with a soldering iron! Surface finish is not good enough to be used directly - easily fixed by filling and sanding. Benefits - You can produce any arbitrary shape you like - 3D modelling skill and good reference materials are the key enabler. Limitations - the perfect material for this sort of application does not exist ( at least on Shapeways). Small details are difficult. Surface needs post processing. Size is limited (though not in any way that would affect sensible non1:1 modelling ambitions). It would struggle to do the sort of resin ejector seat model used by our aircraft bretheren. Alternatives - Once the model is in digital form, there are any number of different ways to make it real. Make cross-sections (which the tool can do easily but which are a faff to turn into something useful), and if big print on paper and bandsaw out, or small - photo etch. Send to a theatrical prop specialist and they can machine from polyeurtithane or polystyrene foam (still need work on surface finish but can be fabulous) Wheels - So how would I do wheels. Sorry Oliver this may be difficult reading... Need good source material for a typical 1920s tyre. Once obtained draw in one's favorite package (adding sidewall text is probably achievable through use of displacement maps provided the resolution can be printed). Then there is a choice. Starting from scratch, I would be tempted to print rim and tyre as one with holes already defined (Sorry chaps). Having done that you might as well print the hubs too. The problem is going to be material choice. With the 312T we used the 3D part to generate a mould that we could cast from. So material choice becomes one of resolution not durability. Then cast hubs and tyres (beyond me at the moment but one day). For those who have already produced awesomely neat 72 spoked wheels the above approach would work but do the tyre alone. Two separate halves (cut on the diameter of course) could be printed and then moulded to save razor sawing. Fit tolerance to the rim might be an issue but that's what Dremels are for. Hope that is useful. Sorry it is a bit long. Nick 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Hi guys, I read your interesting posts about 3D, that will change, no doubt, the future of our hobby (hoping 3D will not go out of fashion all our works...) But in the same time, I have been going on with the 14th step, on which there are (to change...) many problems to solve. I thought the stand 121D was too smooth and applied Mr Surfacer 1200 on it with a cotton swab. The 02 screws of the 6th step are much too short to go through 121D and 02 nuts! After inserting a small section of cut screw inside, I cemented the nuts (photo 1). I decided to change the aspect of the cooling system (30E): on the Mef, it is made of copper, so I applied copper instead of steel on it. The picture 2 shows the distributors with their cover and the connections. To be able to paint the soft plastic parts (K parts), I had the idea to apply a fine layer of liquid cyano (Cyberbond 2028) on them, so that the parts get stronger and may be painted. It works! I chose XF-56 enamel, I'll do a light weathering after drying... All the best to all of you, dear members of this thread! Olivier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Olivier, sorry just realised my last post mis-spelt your name.:( Won't happen again Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 No problem, Nick, I know Olivier becomes Oliver in english... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) Gentlemen, have found this very artistically improved photo (?) of the 806 .... should you not have it already ? from this book : Unfortunately all Cecil Clutton, Denis Jenkinson and Cyril Posthumous have passed away since some time. However they all worked for Motor Sports Magazine. I also looked in the archives of MSM and could not find more photos of the 806. But i will write Motors Sport M. and ask for help. Two of the credible persons of authority coming to mind, who may have unpublished photos of the 806, or who may know where to find them, is Doug Nye and Bernard Cahier. i will try to contact Doug Nye via the Autosport nostalgia forum where he was quite active. Bernard Cahier has passed away but his son i believe, has kept his father's library intact. The purpose of course is to get any possible visual reference we can on the 806, specially the engine. No escape it seems than a storming trip to Turino's Fiat Museum and archives. Edited October 16, 2016 by sharknose156 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Nice picture, Sam, congratulations! Unfortunately, as you say, it won't help us to have concrete answers to questions we are wondering. We will follow with many interest your detective work near Doug Nye and Cahier's son. I wonder if a travel to Torino would help us about the 806... Do you really think so? (it would assurely be useful for the Mef'). Sam, you who build the Mef', what is your point of view about the question to know if there was such a tube for ignition wires on the 806, like there is on the Mef? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 The image does confirm Andy's correct placement of the aft louvres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 And what about Tarquinio Provini's family? After all, to design such a model, with so many details (not always right, ok), including engine, he necessarly had a quite important documentation. Provini died in january 2005, but he probably let docs about the kits he provided, no? How could we come in contact with his beneficiaries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vontrips Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Great photo Sam! Interesting that the exhausts appear to be round in section, rather than square. Most interesting is that the left louvres (near the cockpit) are indeed facing backwards...now I wonder who suggested that , LOL! ;-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Hi guys, this is the last photo of my engine, distributors in place. The next step is the ignition wiring, and I still don't know what to do, free wires or inside tubes... About the picture Sam found, I think we must be very careful about it. If you look at the photo black and white with Bordino at the end of the race, you will see squarred exhaust and large louvres, when "Sam's picture" shows in fact round exhaust and much shorter left louvres... Unless considering the photo was retouched, it is IMHO a better reference than an artist drawing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) Hello guys, that's done, I made my decision about the ignition wiring: I will follow the way like on the 16th step: wires going inside the cooling vertical tubes, which requires to have no more than 0,7 mm wires. I like it like that, as the song... Notice that the way is different on the 14th step, especially on the left side (direct way by the outside). Edited October 16, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph text missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharknose156 Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Sam, you who build the Mef', what is your point of view about the question to know if there was such a tube for ignition wires on the 806, like there is on the Mef? Dear Olivier, IMHO there is no tube holding the ignition wires on the 806. For several reasons, but here i will be brief: The Mef has a tube holding the wires because it is a very long (!) straight 6 cylinder 21.7 lit. engine designed in 1908/1909. Therefore the electric cables linked to the cylinders had to be long, and protected from the steel cylinders heat etc. at the time i am pretty sure the rubber or silk coated cables were very sensitive to heat and could melt or burn. Eldridge kept the the A12 engine as it was originally when he ran the car in 1924. The 806 racer's engine belongs to the 1.5 litre generation of smaller turbocharged compact motors with the cylinders divided in two parallel lines. The engine's electric cables in 27 were better insulated etc. and most probably needed NOT be protected in a copper tube which would have added weight and taken space under the hood of these little mean racers. I looked at some photos of same generation engines ; maserati, delage, bugatti and they all seemed to have had their cables exposed. Neatly packed but exposed. Edited October 16, 2016 by sharknose156 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Thank you very much Sam your arguments confirm my decision. Good night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts