Info on 51 sqd Whitley, april/may 1940

[bull-nut]

Hi all, since the members here have proved so helpful with my upcoming liberator build, I thought I'd put a request for another family link and see if it can be as productive.

The aircraft in question this time is an AW Whitley Mk IV, serial K9039, 51 sqd that went down in Yorkshire on the morning of 1 May 1940 after getting lost and running out of fuel after a raid on Norway.

I've tried multiple google searches but had no luck determining the aircrafts squadron letter, I do know it was MH-?

Best chance for a build I think is to backdate the Airfix Mk V, so what changes would I need to make? fair over the rear turret?

Standard RAF DE/DG over Night scheme would be right I guess?

[tonyot]

I dare say that you have found this;

http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/aircraft/yorkshire/york40/k9039.html

on the excellent Aircraft accidents in Yorkshire website,.......

Have you checked out the Sqn Operations Record Book (ORB) known as the AIR/27 on the Public Records Office Kew website? You may have to pay £3.30 to download the relevant book but they are a mine of informaton and usually include serial and code letter tie ups,....it all depends on the officer who collated it at the time. Here is the search page;

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/raf-operations-record-books-1939-1945/

Good luck,

Tony

ps- here is the page for the relevant 51 Sqn record,.....you will have to log into the website to be able to download the record, just follow the trail from this page.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2503128

It will eventually lead to you adding the relevant section to your basket, paying for it and then dowloading it. These records are a mine of info and well worth the asking price!

Edited December 17, 2015 by tonyot

[Vicarage Vee]

If anyone has a copy of the relevant volume of Bill Chorley's Bomber Command Losses it may also be recorded there. I'm afraid that my copies don't go back that far. The RAF Commands website would be a good place to ask if the ORB doesn't come up trumps.

[AWFK10]

I've got the 1940 volume. It doesn't give the code letter, I'm afraid. Not sure what you mean about fairing over the rear turret, bull-nut? The Mk IV did have a rear turret but differed from the Mk V by lacking a 15" extension to the rear fuselage introduced on the later mark to give the turret (the same 4 gun Nash & Thompson one in both cases, as far as I know) a better field of fire. It also retained the tailfins fitted to the Tiger-engine marks, with a curved leading edge, rather than the straight leading edge on the Mk V.

[bull-nut]

Tony: Yes, I'd already found the Yorkshire Aircraft site, That was one of the reasons I thought the MkIV only had the one turret, the crew manifest only shows one air gunner, rather than the two I would have expected. I guess the observer would have done double duty as an air gunner? Already had a quick look at the National Archives, but thought it was worth trying here before I pay up for the record download, this month has been expensive enough already . David Earl's Hell on High Ground apparently has a good report of the incident, so I've got a copy on order from Amazon. I may have to get the code from the NA after all though.

VV: Thanks for the tip, I'll try over there if nothing else comes up

AWKK10: 15"? That amounts to about 5mm off of the fuselage rear doesn't it? I'll have to take a slice out between the turret mounting and horizontal stab then? Rounded fin leading edges could be more of a problem, depends where they adjusted the leading edge line I guess. If the tip was moved forwards, then I could maybe reshape the kit parts, but if the chord of the fins was reduced, I'll need to replace them with new?

Edit: According to uboat.net, the Mk4 used a 2 gun tail turret. Also, does anyone know if the flightpath conversion for the Frog kit is still available anywhere, it seems to have a set of early fins.

Edited December 18, 2015 by bull-nut

[AndyL]

There is a released casualty pack for this incident, held at the National Archives, file reference AIR 81/189.

[tonyot]

bull-nut- The ORB records only cost £3.30p......... surely things are not so tight are they? The answer which you seek is most likely within!

The curved fins for the Mk.IV are provided on the sprues of the FLY Whitley Mk.V/VII kits,......I gave mine to a friend but if anybody else has built the FLY kit they may have the spare fins left over,.....might be worth a request in the WANTED section? As you say the tail will need to be shortened but I`m pretty sure that the 4 gun Boulton Paul turet was fitted to this version, as opposed to the earlier single/twin gun type. As you say the forward gun was most likely unmanned and I would say that the WOp/AG would fill in here where needed as he was of course a trained air gunner too.

Cheers

Tony

[AWFK10]

The Putnam "Armament of British Aircraft 1909 - 1939" says "With the Whitley IV a truly massive advance was registered, for though the ventral installation was deleted, the tail turret was now of Nash & Thompson type, housing four Browning guns". This is confirmed by "Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft since 1913" ("Another innovation in the Mk IV was the fitting, in the tail position, of a power-operated Nash & Thompson turret mounting four .303 in Browning machine guns") and in the Warpaint on the Whitley - although, despite this, the latter has a profile of a Mk IV illustrating it fitted with the old manual rear turret!

[Ivor Ramsden]

The 51 Squadron ORB doesn't record aircraft code letters at this time so save your £3.30.

[DJPFlightpath]

Also, does anyone know if the flightpath conversion for the Frog kit is still available anywhere, it seems to have a set of early fins.

https://www.djparkins.com/product.php?productid=18021&cat=286&page=1

David Parkins

Flightpath

www.djparkins.com

[Bengt]

The code letter for K9039 was F.

Ref AIR 27/496 51 Sqn. appendichs. This appecndichs also cost 3.30 £ and reveals much information which the ORB does not have. If I'm going to buy a ORB from TNA, I always check if the squadron has an appendichs. If so, I buy them. Well worth the extra 3.30.

Bengt

[bull-nut]

Tony: Not tight, just a case of not spending money unnecessarily. The wanted section is a good call, thanks.

AWFK10: Thanks for the clarification, I can relax about replacing that now.

Ivor: Thanks for the info.

DP: Found that one after posting here, but thanks for the link anyway, I'll likely pick one of those up if other avenues don't bear fruit.

Bengt: You star, have a Cookie! That's just what I was hoping for. Having now bought that record, thanks for the tip, it shows the relative in question flying on N1407/H on 13th March, filling a different role. Retrained in the meantime I guess.

Edit. Aargh. Need 100 posts to start a thread in the Wanted section. Don't have time to make the next 82 posts right now, maybe I'll try scratchbuilding the fins instead.

Edited December 19, 2015 by bull-nut