Iraqi Northrop A-17 - Cool Low-Flying Shot

[dragonlanceHR]

You have to mean it to get to Dayton.

FYI, I think SH have misidentified the colours in their depiction. The airframe appears to be in standard Dutch camouflage, for which the pale tone should be a tan shade and not grey as depicted on the SH box top.

IIRC the most recent research quotes that camouflage beige is a gray-brown colour approx. FS 26360, not tan.

Vedran

The milimeter brigade

[mhaselden]

IIRC the most recent research quotes that camouflage beige is a gray-brown colour approx. FS 26360, not tan.

Vedran

The milimeter brigade

So...it's halfway between tan and the grey depicted on the SH kit box? I guess we were both equally right and equally wrong.

And, yes, tongue is firmly in cheek here.

[Max Headroom]

I do not think so - at least if you compare models. But it is very likely, that Curtiss scaled down or follow the construction of wing from Northrop Gamma which is geometrically the same as Nomad. I know - more or less - since Northrops have central flat part like Harvard or DC2 or DC3 and rised outer sections and Curtiss are rised from the fuselage.

Regarding scheme for camtured DB8A - I would vote that the rear part of fuselage is left i Dutch colours whereas rest is perhaps in two tone green (RLM 70,71???) and bottom should be yellow, I think.

Regards

J-W

Air Enthusiast did an article on the Northrop and said the outer wings were identical (undercarriage excepted).

Trevor

[JWM]

Just to compare

[KRK4m]

Air Enthusiast did an article on the Northrop and said the outer wings were identical (undercarriage excepted).

Trevor

Just hope it wasn't said by William Green and Gordon Swanborough - they simply couldn't release such a canard!

Even if you managed to join together two outer (dihedralled) wing panels of Northrop A-17, their span is just 1120 cm (compared to 1138 cm for the P-36). Maximum wing chord is 287 cm for the A-17 outer wings and 275 cm for the P-36 centreline. Curtiss P-36 feature NACA 2210 wing section, while the A-17 uses NACA 2415 for the centre section, thinning down to 2409 at the tips.

Northrop A-17 ailerons overlap the wingtip and their ribs are parallel to the fuselage centreline, while in the P-36 the wingtip overlaps the aileron, whose ribs are perpendicular to the wing trailing edge. On the A-17 outer wings joined together the aileron inner edges are 574 cm apart, while in the P-36 such distance is 638 cm.

And between the ailerons and the fuselage the P-36 has plain split flaps, while the A-17 has perforated dive brakes. Moreover - IIRC - the P-36 has three wing spars, while the A-17 features five.

Should I add anything more?

[Antoine]

By the way, is there any good book of this subject on the market?

I've got most of Jorge Nunez Padin's work on FAA and COAN aircraft, but not the Northrop one, out of stock at my usual bookseller.

[Max Headroom]

I'm away from my references but will find out the authorship this weekend

Trevor

[mhaselden]

Just hope it wasn't said by William Green and Gordon Swanborough - they simply couldn't release such a canard!

Even if you managed to join together two outer (dihedralled) wing panels of Northrop A-17, their span is just 1120 cm (compared to 1138 cm for the P-36). Maximum wing chord is 287 cm for the A-17 outer wings and 275 cm for the P-36 centreline. Curtiss P-36 feature NACA 2210 wing section, while the A-17 uses NACA 2415 for the centre section, thinning down to 2409 at the tips.

Northrop A-17 ailerons overlap the wingtip and their ribs are parallel to the fuselage centreline, while in the P-36 the wingtip overlaps the aileron, whose ribs are perpendicular to the wing trailing edge. On the A-17 outer wings joined together the aileron inner edges are 574 cm apart, while in the P-36 such distance is 638 cm.

And between the ailerons and the fuselage the P-36 has plain split flaps, while the A-17 has perforated dive brakes. Moreover - IIRC - the P-36 has three wing spars, while the A-17 features five.

Should I add anything more?

So...as a generalism, you think the concept of a P-36 wing being used as the outer panels for the A-17 is unlikely to be true?

Good details. Thanks for sharing.

[mhaselden]

By the way, is there any good book of this subject on the market?

I've got most of Jorge Nunez Padin's work on FAA and COAN aircraft, but not the Northrop one, out of stock at my usual bookseller.

There is a Dutch Profiles book but it only covers the use by that country. Reviews indicate that, given the limited operational record, a fair amount of the book deals with Dutch Air Force organization. I can't confirm that as I haven't seen the volume. Other than that, I'm unaware of any more general books about the type that cover all variants and users.

[Antoine]

This is the one I'm talking about:

[mhaselden]

Cool. Thanks Antoine. I was unaware of that book.

[Antoine]

In case you don't know the collection, it's centered on FAA and COAN aircraft, and (nearly?) all are written by Jorge Nunez Padin.

Each booklet is printed in color on some sort of photo paper; in an horizontal A4 format.

Written in spanish, which is not too difficult to understand for me latin language speaker. In general there's an english abstract in the end.

Each book is divided between overall story of the subject aircraft's service, a technical side, and the life of each airframe serial by serial.

Many colors pics, some B&W, and some colour profiles.

Don't know where to find them in UK, but LELA bookstore stock them in France.

But sorry, I'd just ordered the last copy of the Northrop's book...

[Antoine]

Also, I forgot to say that I consider them to be really cheap, in general between 10 and 20€, a real bargain.

[mhaselden]

When you said FAA I thought you meant Fleet Air Arm.

My wife thanks you for saving me from another book purchase...at least for now!

[Antoine]

Insist on the word cheap, Mark.

Try with a phrase turning around "cheaper than a pair of new shoes".

Might work, you never know...

[mhaselden]

You clearly don't know my wife!

In reality, she's hugely supportive of my addition to aircraft and tolerant of my desires to visit museums, buy books etc. I see plenty of wife-bashing on the web so I just want to set the record straight regarding my sweetheart.

[Antoine]

She's right behind you at the moment, aren't she?

[mhaselden]

Ok...where's the camera?

[Bonehammer]

Ok...where's the camera?

If you have a laptop, look for a shiny black dot on the frame around the screen. A little square of adhesive foil ought to do the trick

[badgeguy17]

While on this export A-17 topic it might be interesting to some to note that it would appear that the British Purchasing Commission initially

planned to acquire all 93 aircraft from the french contract to be allocated serials AB541-633 but then changed their mind to 61 in number.

The remaining 32 were returned to the french to be embarked on the carrier Bearn which never returned to Halifax. The RCAF later acquired these

which in service had a much kinder fate rather than rotting away on a hillside on Martinique with CW77's and Belgian 339B's.

[dogsbody]

While on this export A-17 topic it might be interesting to some to note that it would appear that the British Purchasing Commission initially

planned to acquire all 93 aircraft from the french contract to be allocated serials AB541-633 but then changed their mind to 61 in number.

The remaining 32 were returned to the french to be embarked on the carrier Bearn which never returned to Halifax. The RCAF later acquired these

which in service had a much kinder fate rather than rotting away on a hillside on Martinique with CW77's and Belgian 339B's.

Do you mean these aircraft?

Chris

[badgeguy17]

Yep those are the ones Dogsbody, I didn't mention the 17 Curtiss hawk 75-4's on Martinique as wasted material because they were later transported

to North Africa in 1943 as trainers. Interesting colours on these, seem to be one toned on the fuselages, any guesses?

Etienne, there is an excellent 17 page article in Air Magazine #36 on the Argentine A8-2's complete with excellent art, comprehensive aircraft listing, etc.

This issue should still be available at the Artipresse site.

[HBBates]

Moreover - IIRC - the P-36 has three wing spars, while the A-17 features five.

Should I add anything more?

Agree with most of your points ...but the P-36/P-40 wing does have five spars (or webs on the drawings)...the two rear most do change an the start of the aileron, four ends, five bends to follow the aileron

From what I've seen the A-17 and P-36 share many of the same construction techniques but they're not in anyway identical / interchangeable components

Edited December 20, 2015 by HBBates

[gingerbob]

Not surprising, considering: "In 1929, [Don Berlin, future designer of the Curtiss 75] left Douglas to work at Northrop Corporation where he was assigned to the Northrop Alpha, Gamma and Delta development." (per Wiki's bio of Berlin)

[mhaselden]

Sorry for resurrecting this thread but the pic below was interesting to me. It shows a variation of the Norwegian scheme with different numbering and a continuous red cheat line:

Also, I'm not sure what the object under the wing might be. There's something similar in the colour starboard side view of a Norwegian airframe posted earlier in this thread.

Edited January 4, 2016 by mhaselden