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Mike

Brand Focused negativity

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I've yet to see model kits sold in any other section than "Toys and Games". I bet people who play with Marvel action figures don't complain that the faces don't look exactly like the actors or artwork.

Perhaps that's because adults have forgotten what's actually fun about toys and games.

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It would probably be very difficult to prove that we have a right to expect accuracy from model kits in a court of law, as models are seen as a toy in many people's eyes.

But we could probably work the "Pain and Suffering" and "Emotional Distress" angle...

It is unreasonable to actively criticize the manufacturer if one is aware of the way they do their 'research and development.'

Why? That very "way" is deserving of criticism.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me over and over, well, there are gonna be some trust issues! Especially when you rush to offer me an inferior take on something that somebody else has already provided or announced that they are about to provide.

As for the larger issue of the venting of spleen (ooh, another great name for a band!- or is it a main dish at an exclusive restaurant?) I'm sick of it. While it is probably unrealistic to expect people to behave any better on an internet forum than they sometimes do in the "real world", it would be nice. I mean, one has to at least be able to read and write to participate, which suggests some basic degree of education...

bob

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I've yet to see model kits sold in any other section than "Toys and Games". I bet people who play with Marvel action figures don't complain that the faces don't look exactly like the actors or artwork.

Perhaps that's because adults have forgotten what's actually fun about toys and games.

I think you have to concede that our hobby is for some at least slightly more than that. Surely?

Jonners

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Perhaps you could also concede that this destructive cult of prejudging everything as unbuildable also sucks the fun out of the hobby? Extremes of either side of the coin do just that to a great many people. I've known a few people that have given up the hobby because of over-riding negativity, back-biting and bitchiness. :shrug:

Speaking personally, I just want to enjoy my hobby. I'd like to know what's wrong with kits so I can make my own informed decision, but I don't have time for the arguing over nothing. That might sound odd coming from someone that runs a forum, but it probably qualifies me quite well to speak on the subject, as I see a lot of it on my travels. Polite and respectful have always been watchwords of Britmodeller, and I think it's time we added "balanced" to that.

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Perhaps you could also concede that this destructive cult of prejudging everything as unbuildable also sucks the fun out of the hobby? Extremes of either side of the coin do just that to a great many people. I've known a few people that have given up the hobby because of over-riding negativity, back-biting and bitchiness. :shrug:

Speaking personally, I just want to enjoy my hobby. I'd like to know what's wrong with kits so I can make my own informed decision, but I don't have time for the arguing over nothing. That might sound odd coming from someone that runs a forum, but it probably qualifies me quite well to speak on the subject, as I see a lot of it on my travels. Polite and respectful have always been watchwords of Britmodeller, and I think it's time we added "balanced" to that.

I totally "concede" that point Mike - what I mean was that if our hobby was just and only about buying a kit, sticking the bits together, and slapping on the stickers then yes we should all just chill, relax and go "Neeeowwwwmm" our models round the room in mock dogfights - I still do anyway! :)

But for many it is a little more advanced that that surely - even painting a model with accurate colours moves you up a notch from just going with whats in the instructions.

Jonners

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I think it's time we added "balanced" to that.

Hear, hear. Personally, I think we live in a bit of a "golden age" for hobbyists rather than pocket-money buyers. We've got an unprecedented range of kits of all kinds of subjects, in every possible scale. Hobbyist modellers have the skills to sort out minor shape and detail issues, if they know enough about the subject and care enough to do it. Even pocket money modellers are vastly better-served than they were in the days when "Aircraft of the Fighting Powers" was the only reference kit-makers had access to... As for those who complain "Well, they SHOULD have got it right" from a position of little to zero knowledge of the constraints, resources and budget available to the kit producer -- well, my car SHOULD do 60mpg, and my computer SHOULD never crash... Every time we build a model, we make our own compromises between how accurate we want the final build to be, how long we want to spend on it, how much money we are prepared to throw at it -- why should a kit maker, car manufacturer or software developer be any different? Equally, glibly saying that if you don't like to read criticism of new kits, don't read the threads doesn't cut it. I am interested in new kits; I do want to know if there are issues with them, to help me decide whether to buy one; and I do want to know what needs to be done to fix those issues. I just don't want to have to wade through post after post telling me how egregious the vendor is for daring to offer such a fatally flawed kit, often based on no more than online images of CAD renderings or resin-printed test shots, in order to get the information I need to make an informed decision about buying it and building it...

bestest,

M.

Edited by cmatthewbacon

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But for many it is a little more advanced that that surely - even painting a model with accurate colours moves you up a notch from just going with whats in the instructions.

I'm glad you still go the NEOWM! :pilot: thing Jonners. A lot of us do take it more seriously than slapping a few bits together, but you're missing my point I think. Polite, respectful and balanced. That's about it. Manners cost nothing, and if we dial back the bias I'll be happy. :)

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I totally "concede" that point Mike - what I mean was that if our hobby was just and only about buying a kit, sticking the bits together, and slapping on the stickers then yes we should all just chill, relax and go "Neeeowwwwmm" our models round the room in mock dogfights - I still do anyway! :)

But for many it is a little more advanced that that surely - even painting a model with accurate colours moves you up a notch from just going with whats in the instructions.

Jonners

Of course I agree with you Jon, I was just stirring the pudding a bit (only a bit!) :blush:

For some it is more advanced, for many, possibly - but it is about balance at the end of the day. Every time this subject comes up, I'm reminded of your gallant efforts with the H**** B*** Tornado, and it seems like a colossal waste of effort to me, even if it was proving the point. Other more accurate kits exist, aftermarket exists, plastic card and superglue exist, the internet photo gallery exists, heck, even internet opinion can be valid (!) and these can all be brought to bear on any individual's assault on inaccuracy. Eventually it does boil down to what you want as an individual modeller, what you find acceptable (I think Mark and Mike have made that point well, among others) and what, if anything, you are prepared to do about it.

I sympathise with people who bemoan new releases based on accuracy, but is painstakingly butchering and fettling an inaccurate rendering of a subject really more enjoyable than simply building a more accurate but older kit with raised panel lines? Or building a more accurate base kit but in a different scale? Again, it's all down to the individual, and good luck to em all, as long as everyone remembers they are sharing the world others who may have different approaches and opinions that are as valid as their own.

Edited by Alan P

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I'm glad you still go the NEOWM! :pilot: thing Jonners. A lot of us do take it more seriously than slapping a few bits together, but you're missing my point I think. Polite, respectful and balanced. That's about it. Manners cost nothing, and if we dial back the bias I'll be happy. :)

I have no problem with that at all Boss. I think the maxim should be "live and let live" in pretty much most things.

Of course I agree with you Jon, I was just stirring the pudding a bit (only a bit!) :blush:

For some it is more advanced, for many, possibly - but it is about balance at the end of the day. Every time this subject comes up, I'm reminded of your gallant efforts with the H**** B*** Tornado, and it seems like a colossal waste of effort to me, even if it was proving the point. Other more accurate kits exist, aftermarket exists, plastic card and superglue exist, the internet photo gallery exists, heck, even internet opinion can be valid (!) and these can all be brought to bear on any individual's assault on inaccuracy. Eventually it does boil down to what you want as an individual modeller, what you find acceptable (I think Mark and Mike have made that point well, among others) and what, if anything, you are prepared to do about it.

I sympathise with people who bemoan new releases based on accuracy, but is painstakingly butchering and fettling an inaccurate rendering of a subject really more enjoyable than simply building a more accurate but older kit with raised panel lines? Or building a more accurate base kit but in a different scale? Again, it's all down to the individual, and good luck to em all, as long as everyone remembers they are sharing the world others who may have different approaches and opinions that are as valid as their own.

Hi Alan - LOL! :)

I think you've nailed did in a roundabout way - the hobby provides enjoyment to the individual in whatever way they see fit. My perfect hobby scenario isn't your's or Mike's, but as long as we recognise that, we can all get on :)

Jonners

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So when a "scale model" does not resemble the original in this way, I don't think its being unreasonable to ask why, nor do I think it's unreasonable to actively criticise the manufacturer if these errors seem avoidable ( such as there's plenty of real ones around to measure, or the errors are so glaring that a casual glance at Google images would reveal them). Further more I think that if any manufacturer repeats this type of error on several models, it's not beyond the realms of reasonable behaviour to be rather guarded about the potential of any upcoming release to suffer from the same problem. Call it "form", "track record", "reputation" or whatever you will. And to my mind, nor is it unreasonable to question the potential accuracy of upcoming new releases based on this track record of previous releases.

In the case of Trumpeter, a company some seem to vehemently detest the existence of, it has been stated many times that their research and development is limited to whatever is provided to them. So, GIGO rules apply (Garbage In/Garbage Out) many times but there have been those where great references where available to them and they did well (Me-262, Intruder, and much of their newer armor kits). They do not send teams to museums so the availability of real subjects is irrelevant unless someone (meaning an enthusiast) goes to visit the subject and provides the information. This last part means that an enthusiast who is unfamiliar with what is needed may end up offering less than prime references (although well intended).

In a case like this company, each subject has to be viewed on its own since one is unaware of the quality of information they availed themselves of and one should also look at their history.

There are very few occasions where Trumpeter revised their molds. It has always been in response to feedback from enthusiasts but they no longer seem to care. Could it be because the sales of the subject wasn't worth it after the added expense of correcting the molds? Other times, they quietly make changes such as their 72nd scale Fencers which aren't merely scaled down from their 1/48th scale kits.

My point is that people should rightfully critique a subject released by a company but not merely the company. Trumpeter's MiG-21MF is a great disappointment to me but not their MiG-23 series (even after all the work required to bring it up to my (not Jennings', Berkut's. Ya-Gabor's) standards). I build these models for myself and my enjoyment may come from different aspects than others. I have no issue correcting something when it is the best kit available of the subject.

Regards,

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:

Wow, will that make Britmodeller the "Fox News" of modelling discussion forums? I'm all for that! :analintruder:

Larry

:rofl: :rofl: Oh dear. Faux News, I like it.

What about Trumpy's Wyvern? Superb kit yet no production example to measure? There is no rhyme or reason to their mixed output. They are not alone, sadly, but I don't dismiss them out of hand. I have 7 Trumpy's in the stash. None 'unbuildable', but I won't buy their big Lightnings because I have examined one and it just doesn't 'look right'.

I will point out kit errors, to help others make decisions or corrections, but I don't tar a manufacturers offerings with the same brush, unless they are really bad (like Starfix).

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Hey, I've got a Starfix kit or two that might give some Trumpeter/Hobby Boss kits a run for the money. Their "Spitfire Mk.21" in <ahem> "1/48" (not even close) is, on the other hand, the most stretching of the "it looks like a..." standard I think I've ever seen, short of the old school "kits" where they gave you a chunk of wood and a three view and said, "Just carve away anything that doesn't look like a ____." I don't hate Trumpeter, or ChiComs [sic], or Czechs, or even those stinkin' Limeys [humor, guys, remember that?], I just hate companies that think a quick internet surf is "research", and good enough to base a model on. But if you are happy to build the results of such a labor of love (?), I won't hate you, either. Just don't tell me that I shouldn't hope for more. When it is all said and done (or at least on current evidence) they're ALL unbuildable, and I've got the empty display case to prove it!

bob

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Hi,

I apologise to all if I'm too new to be able to make proper comments and observations on this but I've been enjoying this thread.

We all have much more in common here (I'm sure) than anything that divides us and of course it does us all good to be polite and show manners towards each other.

We're all different to a degree- (I know I am :winkgrin: ) and have vastly differing perspectives on what is important and what isn't important in our lives, depending most probably on events in our lives and our individual circumstances, our health status, our upbringings, our finances, our social and political situations, our age and experiences, etc.,and we can't possibly all come to this forum expecting to be of the same opinion.

'Importance' ..that's a word that's got me thinking. What is important?

Has anyone else seen that film 'Kingdom of Heaven' starring Orlando Bloom, where he (as Balian, defender of Jerusalem) says to Saladin ''What is Jerusalem worth?" and Saladin replies.... "Nothing" and then slightly later..."Everything".

Well here's a situation where we're discussing the relative merits of what we do with smallish pieces of plastic or resin, or what manufacturers are expected to have done with it, on a thin crust of rock, covering a moulten-core planet in a vast vacuum with only a very thin veil of atmosphere protecting us.

We're heading East at approximately 600 mph (at the UK's latitude) and the planet's doing around 600 million miles a year around our Sun.

The Sun (and we) are travelling around 1,446,523,900 miles a year around the milky way and it'll take us around 250 million years to do a circuit.

Around 56 million people die each year worldwide.

The planet's inhabitants are waging war with each other over ideals and over the past 3,400 years, we have only had 268 years of 'peace' (8 per cent of that time).

The richest 1% own half of the world's wealth and yet half the world's population live on less than $2.50 a day.

Is the hobby 'important' to anyone at all?

Well yes....

....Or at least it has as much importance to us as individuals (when we're engaged with it) as anything anyone enjoys as a pastime. Football? Strictly Come Dancing results? Coronation Street/Eastenders? Knitting?

Motorsports? Dog Shows? We get wrapped up in all the details and rules and that is often part of the enjoyment.

None of it's really important in the big picture, but at times it can feel all important, when you get caught up in it.

I buy what I think is the 'most accurate' kit for the money I can afford and then try to build it as best as I can.

I make mistakes and so do they.

I do hope to learn from my mistakes though and hope that they do too.

If a company make kits because they share a passion about the hobby rather than just making money, then I'd hope that this would reflect in their products and research and their attitude to feedback.

If I point anything out in a kit which could do with changing , it'll only be because I hope someone's listening somewhere who might be able to fix it for next time.

(In the meantime I'll be trying to fix it myself).

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Wow, will that make Britmodeller the "Fox News" of modelling discussion forums? I'm all for that! :analintruder:

Ha ha! We report, you decide! :rofl:

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Trumpeter and Hobby Boss are not 'new companies'

Trumpeter and Hobby Boss aren't new. I am aware of this since I first was informed of Trumpeter by Wasan Plastics back in 2000. They've had great success doing what they do despite the whining of many. This has encouraged quite a lot of new companies (which I was referring to) to follow the same route. Many of these companies produce interesting subjects that have excellent production values but less than stellar engineering and fidelity. Meaning, the parts look great on the sprue trees but don't fit very well and/or are inaccurate. Since I build armor as much as aircraft, I see this in the relatively new companies such as Hong, Takom, and Panda. Kitty Hawk (sister company to Panda) also had kits that looked great on trees but suffered from what I mentioned. Luckily, they seem to have come around.

Regards,

Edited by sharkmouth

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Regarding brand focused negativity, I've been sticking plastic bits for long enough to have witnessed both lemons and great kits coming from every manufacturer, no problem with this and nobody will ever read a post from me slagging a manufacturer with no reason. At the same time there is something called "track record" that each of us follows anyway without realising. Airfix issues a new kit, we all have some expectation based on what we've seen in their recent kits. Fine Molds does a new kit and everyone expects a certain type of product. Trumpeter announces a new kit and I can't blame those who may fear inaccurate shapes while at the same time it's right to expect a decently detailed and engineered kit.

While I would never agree with the kind of slagging seen on other forums, it should be reminded that track record is something that affects every company and also every individual, why should this not affect a modeller's choice when it comes to buying a new kit ?
In one of my previous lives I used to review research funding proposals for a public institution. The track record of the research group requesting funding accounted for 10% of the overall evaluation score, research groups who had shown they could do a good use of public funding had an edge, groups that had repeatedly failed in the past had less chances. As I was giving away public money, it's only fair that as a reviewer I had to consider the capability of the recipient of this money to use it wisely. Now why shouldn't I do the same with my own personal cash ? We all do it whenever we buy something, if a product from company X did not satisfy us we're less inclined to buy from them.

All the above leads me to the whole matter of criticising a kit for accuracy reasons: as long as the criticism comes in a polite and balanced way (and I fully agree with mike on this), why not ? If accuracy of that particular subject is important for me, why shouldn't I point accuracy issues if I spot them ? Then sometime I may suggest improvements, other times I may feel it's not worth bothering and suggest that buying a different kit is the best option for an accurate (or more accurate) reproduction.

I'm perfectly aware that other modellers may have different priorities and I fully accept this, but why should I change my way of doing things ? In the same way as I don't mind if a modeller wants to build his Starfix Spitfire and paint it emerald green and pink over violet, I'm not going to accept if the same modeller complains if I do things my way. Anyone who's not interested in reading my post on where kit XYZ lacks a mm or has a wrong wing sweep angle is free to disregard such post.

As for telling people to buy a kit before criticizing, sorry but I work hard enough to earn my money, it's for me to decide if I want to spend the money on that kit or on something else. If I see something in a photo of the kit that I don't like, nobody can force me to spend money on what I may consider a product that does not meet my expectations. Want me to buy something I'm not interested in ? I'll give you my Paypal detail so that you can send me the money...

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5...

Edited by Alan P

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Looks like someone got a bit carried away there and made the mistake of thinking I'd hidden his post with thinly disguised swearing & other forum bashing, got upset and accused me of trolling my own forum :hmmm: Honestly, the things people say in the heat of the moment! :doh:

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Monkeys as well :shrug:

I thought that was just guys who drive big cars ,4x4s, Bmws ,audis :hmmm:

Thanks Mike learn something new everyday on BM :thumbsup2:

See,we're off already,I drive a BMW and I'm being hammered for it................................. :coolio:

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While you're out buying cars, please don't forget me - a nice 2 door coupe so I can let what remains of my hair (mostly ear & nose) stream behind me in the breeze ^_^

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Imagine my surprise when a couple years after really enjoying building a Trumpeter Lightning F.3 I went on the internet to find out it was the wrong shape and not at all a good kit. I quickly re set my memory and too agree that, after rethinking the whole experience it WAS horrible after all...

...oh no, that would be foolish.

The Lightning F.3 I built was enjoyable because with rusty skills (only my 3rd kit after 15 years away) it fell together, the engraved panel lines showed through thick sludgy old Humbrol enanmel (one pot still said 'Color' on it). The kit had the 60's markings over what appears to be a fleet air arm grey scheme but it was fun.

I ignored the markings and painted it silver with a rattle can.

I enjoyed it. It got me back modelling again.

Mike is right, by all means point out what is wrong with a kit, but don't just slam stuff for the sake of it!

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Just to clarify this- in relation to At Sea's above post,

Personally I don't slam Trumpeter for the sake of slamming them. I slam them for their appalling record in tooling awfully inaccurate models of WW2 to modern British aircraft subjects in 1/48th scale. The Wyvern & Seahawk were I believe not tooled by them, but since then......Pah.

So when I see a photo of a Defiant Mk1 in their catalogue, I consider their track record and form, and come to the conclusion that it will be wrong. Yep, I'm prejudging them, no CAD, no prototype or test shot to look at, but it will be. I know that, and actually you know that too. Wronger than Wrong Jack McWrong, winner of the international Mr Wrong title 3 years running :)

And the shame of this will be, it will fit perfectly, have beautifully recessed panels, be a reasonable price ( price point below Airfix's I bet) and will generally have all the attributes a modern CAD designed model should have. But something on it shape wise will be wrong, something that's not easily correctable and throws the model "out".

That my fellow BM'ers and modellers is my experience of Trumpeter, based on buying the kits and being disappointed - yet I still try and build and correct, because thats what I do. Fortunately in the case of the Defiant - I don't need to wait for this underwhelming experience- I can just buy the new Airfix one, which again because of their track record and form I believe will be accurate.

So I try to be be positive, I try to avoid whitewashing a company, but the laws of probability make me feel I won't be wrong. If I am - I will eat my hat.

Jonners

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