When the white rose met the Swallow

[Radpoe Spitfire]

I read anaccount today of an unusual occurrence that would make the basis of an interesting diorama. It told of an incident during the the latter days of fighting in Germany in 1945, Tony Dyer, a pilot flying a 616 Sqn Meteor landed his aircraft on an Autobahn & met up with a unit operating the Me 262, he spent a period of time talking to the Luftwaffe airmen & was even invited to a party, but he declined before returning to his own base.

Can anyone shed anything else about the incident please?

I.e. The German unit involved, any images of Autobahn base layout.

Regards Adrian

[Beard]

I thought that the Meteor was prohibited from flying over German-held territory, for fear of the technology falling in to their hands.

[old thumper]

I don't have a clue, but my guess would be that this happened very soon after the surrender. Meteors were used to attack airfields in Northern Germany at the very end of the war.

[Radpoe Spitfire]

The account is mentioned in a ?? AM special I saw in smiths today- title Spitfire over Germany.

It mentions details of Tony Dyer, giving an account of his service with 616, but is rather vague- but still enigmatic.

A good read though

[Don149]

• Could the Meteor have restarted without the aid of a trolley acc.?.

[Radpoe Spitfire]

• Could the Meteor have restarted without the aid of a trolley acc.?.

Good point, I must admit I'm not sure.

[sloegin57]

The account is mentioned in a ?? AM special I saw in smiths today- title Spitfire over Germany.

It mentions details of Tony Dyer, giving an account of his service with 616, but is rather vague- but still enigmatic.

A good read though

I am not surprised that it is "rather vague" and personally the phrase "Pinch of salt (large)" springs to mind.

I believe that the "story" is a "personalised" version of one which appears in Mike Cooper's history of 616 Squadron entitled "Meteor Age" published initially in 1997 and again in '98 and' 99.

May I also point out that throughout the volume "Meteor Age" nor in Air Commodore Graham Pitchfork's excellent history of 616 Squadron can I find any mention of a Squadron member by the name of Tony Dyer.

I am attaching relevant scans from "Meteor Age" and let the reader draw their own conclusions :-

The only other reference that I can find with respect to the Me262 is that the Squadron found underground diesel fuel tanks at Lubeck, a former Me262 base, which came in useful for fuelling the ex German Navy e-boat that they had "liberated" in Lubeck harbour and which they used for water skiing.

A much shortened version of the above tale appears in Air Commodore Pitchfork's book.

HTH

Dennis

[Radpoe Spitfire]

I am not surprised that it is "rather vague" and personally the phrase "Pinch of salt (large)" springs to mind.

I believe that the "story" is a "personalised" version of one which appears in Mike Cooper's history of 616 Squadron entitled "Meteor Age" published initially in 1997 and again in '98 and' 99.

May I also point out that throughout the volume "Meteor Age" nor in Air Commodore Graham Pitchfork's excellent history of 616 Squadron can I find any mention of a Squadron member by the name of Tony Dyer.

I am attaching relevant scans from "Meteor Age" and let the reader draw their own conclusions :-

The only other reference that I can find with respect to the Me262 is that the Squadron found underground diesel fuel tanks at Lubeck, a former Me262 base, which came in useful for fuelling the ex German Navy e-boat that they had "liberated" in Lubeck harbour and which they used for water skiing.

A much shortened version of the above tale appears in Air Commodore Pitchfork's book.

HTH

Dennis

I'm not surprised you don't recognise the name Dyer- it's me getting my names mixed up!!! There is someone I know at work with that surname.

When I read the account in the book I'd sen I must admit that I need to find out more about what and when it occurred- to be fair to the author memories do get altered over time.

Thank you for the info you have given- it's very much appreciated. No doubt there is something of a ring of truth in what has been written in the published acco

[Radpoe Spitfire]

I am not surprised that it is "rather vague" and personally the phrase "Pinch of salt (large)" springs to mind.

I believe that the "story" is a "personalised" version of one which appears in Mike Cooper's history of 616 Squadron entitled "Meteor Age" published initially in 1997 and again in '98 and' 99.

May I also point out that throughout the volume "Meteor Age" nor in Air Commodore Graham Pitchfork's excellent history of 616 Squadron can I find any mention of a Squadron member by the name of Tony Dyer.

I am attaching relevant scans from "Meteor Age" and let the reader draw their own conclusions :-

The only other reference that I can find with respect to the Me262 is that the Squadron found underground diesel fuel tanks at Lubeck, a former Me262 base, which came in useful for fuelling the ex German Navy e-boat that they had "liberated" in Lubeck harbour and which they used for water skiing.

A much shortened version of the above tale appears in Air Commodore Pitchfork's book.

HTH

Dennis

I'm not surprised you don't recognise the name Dyer- it's me getting my names mixed up!!! There is someone I know at work with that surname.

When I read the account in the book I'd sen I must admit that I need to find out more about what and when it occurred- to be fair to the author memories do get altered over time.

Thank you for the info you have given- it's very much appreciated. No doubt there is something of a ring of truth in what has been written in the published accounts so far. It does make intriguing reading though.

Many thanks Adrian

[sloegin57]

I'm not surprised you don't recognise the name Dyer- it's me getting my names mixed up!!! There is someone I know at work with that surname.

When I read the account in the book I'd sen I must admit that I need to find out more about what and when it occurred- to be fair to the author memories do get altered over time.

Thank you for the info you have given- it's very much appreciated. No doubt there is something of a ring of truth in what has been written in the published accounts so far. It does make intriguing reading though.

Many thanks Adrian

Adrian, if it wasn't Dyer referred to in the article what was the surname ? and which copy of AM are you referring to ?.

I will be in town tomorrow and would pick one up and check the story out.

Dennis

[Overhaulin]

Well I found the anecdote pretty much verbatim here. Credited to Gaze

Given the number of "firsts" seems a little odd he would be deemed an unsung hero.

http://warthunder.com/en/news/830-Historical-The-Unsung-Australian-Hero-en

Gaze re-joined No.610 Squadron, initially flying Spitfires from England and later the Netherlands and Germany as the push across Europe progressed.Gaze was credited as the first Allied pilot to land back on European soil after D-Day, on 10th June 1944. Flying Spitfire Mk.XIV on Saint Valentine's Day 1945, Gaze was credited as the first Australian pilot to shoot down a Me 262 jet. On being transferred to No.41 Squadron, Gaze claimed another 4 victories and took another record when he shot down a German Ar 234 jet. During the last days of the war Gaze became the first Australian pilot to fly the new Meteor jet operationally. In one incident, he flew along a stretch of autobahn where Me 262’s were known to operate from, and landed to meet some German pilots and to compare aircraft. The German pilots extended an invitation to a party that night but Gaze declined and flew back.

[sloegin57]

Well I found the anecdote pretty much verbatim here. Credited to Gaze

Given the number of "firsts" seems a little odd he would be deemed an unsung hero.

http://warthunder.com/en/news/830-Historical-The-Unsung-Australian-Hero-en

Gaze re-joined No.610 Squadron, initially flying Spitfires from England and later the Netherlands and Germany as the push across Europe progressed.Gaze was credited as the first Allied pilot to land back on European soil after D-Day, on 10th June 1944. Flying Spitfire Mk.XIV on Saint Valentine's Day 1945, Gaze was credited as the first Australian pilot to shoot down a Me 262 jet. On being transferred to No.41 Squadron, Gaze claimed another 4 victories and took another record when he shot down a German Ar 234 jet. During the last days of the war Gaze became the first Australian pilot to fly the new Meteor jet operationally. In one incident, he flew along a stretch of autobahn where Me 262’s were known to operate from, and landed to meet some German pilots and to compare aircraft. The German pilots extended an invitation to a party that night but Gaze declined and flew back.

Thanks a bunch Overhauling and belatedly Radpoe Spitfire.

I am very puzzled as to why both Cooper and Pitchfork failed to mention it unless of course the latter took the story from the formers book. I have never heard that story before in relationship to 616 Squadron including from quite a few of the former WWII members. Indeed, the first that I heard of Tony Gaze was in Coopers book.

Given the number of "firsts" seems a little odd he would be deemed an unsung hero.

Yes, I agree entirely - odd that.

Thanks again

Dennis

[Radpoe Spitfire]

Thanks a bunch Overhauling and belatedly Radpoe Spitfire.

I am very puzzled as to why both Cooper and Pitchfork failed to mention it unless of course the latter took the story from the formers book. I have never heard that story before in relationship to 616 Squadron including from quite a few of the former WWII members. Indeed, the first that I heard of Tony Gaze was in Coopers book.

Yes, I agree entirely - odd that.

Thanks again

Dennis

No problem Dennis, like yourself I'd never heard anything like it in reference to 616 squadron.the quote done by Overhauling is very close to what is written in the book I'd read.

Incidentally, title for the publication is " Spitfires over Germany, I saw it in Meadowhall on the 3rd, but went into WHS in Retford to get a copy yesterday but they hadn't got any.

Once again, very intriguing to read.

Regards Adrian

Edited December 5, 2015 by Radpoe Spitfire

[MikeC]

Interesting. Slight diversion though - not the first allied pilot to land back in Europe - that fell to Ens Robert Adams, USN, of VCS-7, on D-Day itself, albeit involuntarily. https://pilotsmanyourplanes.com/Page_82.html

[Magpie22]

Lex McCaulay interviewed Tony Gaze for his book Six Aces, published by Bantam Books in 1991, nearly 25 years ago. The pilots covered were, Les Clisby, Tony Gaze, Jack Storey, Mervyn Shipard, Charles Scherf, and 'Butch' Gordon. A good read if you can find a copy. I'm sure that Lex won't mind if I show scans of the relevant pages relating to Gaze and the Me-262.

A little later Tony refers to flying Me-262s from Lubeck. The Co had taken off in one Me-262 and, as he was coming in to land, Tony was taxying out in a second aircraft. As the CO landed he collapsed the nose wheel and went skidding down the runway, catching on fire, and narrowly escaping the burning aircraft. Tony was ordered to abort his flight. "It was infuriating. If he had been two minutes later, I'd have been in the air". Soon after, flying of German aircraft was prohibited. Tony never got to fly a 262.

Magpie 22

[Radpoe Spitfire]

Thanks Magpie, indeed there is a lot more to this story than I had originally read. Much of the account given in the "six Aces" dialogue is of great use to me.

On my initial knowledge, I got the notion to build a diorama of a coming together of the two warbirds, though they never fought in combat, there is irony in an encounter prior to the official cease of hostilities.

They say that the truth is stranger than fiction.

[GordonM]

I'm following this with fascination, my late father was a corporal in The Royal Corps Of Signals and ended the war at Lubeck airfield. I wish I could ask him about RAF painted fw190s, he did mentioned Meteors. I find the comment about German staff interesting, my father was put in charge of what were then civilians who dug trenches for cabling as it was his units job to turn a Luftwaffe airfield into an RAF station. He got hauled up in front of his c/o because he put some RAF officers noses out of job for insisting that the Germans were given proper rations, apparently some RAF officer decided that as they were ex Luftwaffe meant they didn't need to be fed properly!

[sloegin57]

Thanks Magpie, indeed there is a lot more to this story than I had originally read. Much of the account given in the "six Aces" dialogue is of great use to me.

On my initial knowledge, I got the notion to build a diorama of a coming together of the two warbirds, though they never fought in combat, there is irony in an encounter prior to the official cease of hostilities.

They say that the truth is stranger than fiction.

I entirely agree Andy and thank you Magpie for the scans. I'm still puzzled as to why such a notable incident was not recorded by Cooper and Pitchfork. I have a feeling that the Inquiry Gaze had to attend may have part of the answer.

I intend to get a copy of the book "Six Aces" but had a bit of a shock, first search :-

I have since found "cheaper" copies.

I assume that your copy Magpie is not printed on gold leaf.

I have a feeling that we have not heard the last of this particular subject.

Tony Gaze passed away peacefully in the early hours of Monday morning the 29th July, 2013 at Geelong, Victoria. He was 93 years old.

RIP

Dennis

Edited December 5, 2015 by sloegin57

[Magpie22]

I bought my copy when the book was released. It still has the price pencilled on the flyleaf - AUD$25! I have Tony Gaze's and John Storey's signatures in it. Hmm, if a reprint is worth 400 pounds, what would I get for a first ed with two of the pilots signatures?

Magpie 22

[KB1949]

Tony Gaze took up single set motor racing after the war. I saw him race in the New Zealand Grand Prix about 1958 driving I think, an early Maserati 250F but I might be wrong. Keith

Edit - Having had a think about it probably early 1960's.

Edited December 6, 2015 by KB1949

[Radpoe Spitfire]

Tony Gaze took up single set motor racing after the war. I saw him race in the New Zealand Grand Prix about 1958 driving I think, an early Maserati 250F but I might be wrong. Keith

Edit - Having had a think about it probably early 1960's.

The article I read also went into detail of his racing career, a very colourful character by all accounts- I woke have loved the opportunity to have met him.

[AndyC]

The magazine is a damned good read in itself - some very interesting stuff in there about the late war

[Radpoe Spitfire]

I'm pleased with all the info, thank you all so much,if anyone finds out some more, please keep it coming.

Now, down to the modelling bit. The plan is to do a diorama of a Meteor and 262 with figures representing Luftwaffe air and ground crew and Tony Gaze himself.

Not one to do diorama's I need a bit if help and pointers to figures and grind equipment. The scale will be 1:48