Duncan B Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 We had a Phantom come back one day with the front canopy missing. It was a nice, warm sunny day (at sea-level) so I cracked a joke to the aircrew that it was a nice day for a convertible. Pilot said nothing but the Nav thought it was funny. Anyhow the Pilot's story was that his wristwatch had caught on the canopy emergency release when he was pulling back on the throttles and fired the front canopy! 'Really' says I, 'what size of watch do you wear?'. Not only are the throttles and the emergency canopy release quite far apart (McDD had obviously thought about it!) but you need to really want to pull that canopy release as it takes a fair old pull to fire it (I remember testing the mechanism with a spring balance to read the pull required and it wasn't a light pull I can tell you). Duncan B 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Viper Tester Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 As you note Duncan, the normal canopy release is a fair distance from the throttles, and fairly well recessed under the cockpit sill. The dicey part about loosing the canopy: the canopy is designed to pull one of the mechanical stops away from the seat, allowing it to fire. The canopy has a coiled silver-colored braided wire connected to the rear inside portion of each canopy frame (on the right?). The other end was connected to a block that kept the firing linkage from moving. When the canopy leaves the aircraft, the coiled wire pulls the block away with it, removing one of the safety features. One of the cockpit entry checklist items was to make sure the coiled wire was intact and connected to the block in the seat linkages. This maneuver, along with checking that the barometric sensor, also on the right side, holes were not covered or blocked. Some seat inspectors insisted on putting inspection stickers over the baro sensor, disabling the seat separation action as the seat fell through however many thousands of feet. This is why some crew look as though they are performing yoga as they lean across the cockpit to check these items before getting in. All part of making sure that the "seven consecutive miracles" can occur to make for a safe ejection with the Mk.5 and Mk.7 seats. Sven Old Viper Tester 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 All part of making sure that the "seven consecutive miracles" can occur to make for a safe ejection with the Mk.5 and Mk.7 seats. Has that ever happened??? Because from what you describe, safe ejection with these seats seems hardly possible ... Sorry guys, no update for today, I forgot I had already planned to go out last night Merry Christmas everybody! Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Has that ever happened??? Because from what you describe, safe ejection with these seats seems hardly possible ... Merry Christmas everybody! Ciao Worked at least 7488 times Giorgio (lives saved so far according to the Martin Baker website) Merry Christmas to you too! Don't stay away from the F4 too long......... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) Thanks Steve! You know, I might be able to sneak in some modelling this afternoon, in between food preparations for tomorrow's big lunch ... But anyway I'll get back to it next Monday, so not that long Ciao Edited December 24, 2015 by giemme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Viper Tester Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Has that ever happened??? Because from what you describe, safe ejection with these seats seems hardly possible ... I didn't mean to make it sound like the seat was unreliable. As Fritag points out, the Mk5 and Mk7 family have an excellent track record for operation and aircrew survival. My comments are based on the annual "egress training" required in the USAF at the time I was F-4 aircrew (test engineer 1981-1992). This training was provided by NCOs whose purpose seemed to be to scare you enough so as you did not 'blow-off" the Before Cockpit Entry checklist. They often referred to the "seven consecutive miracles" in operating the Mk5 and Mk7 seats. Just looking at the seat exterior reveals so many linkages and bits of plumbing that the casual observer would think that it is a wonder they worked at all. The fact that it has such great operational record is testament to the engineering and production by MBA. This site has an excellent description of the Mk7 and many other ejection seats: http://www.ejectionsite.com The training technique must have worked. I don't remember the checklist verbatim, but the fact that I remember so much about the seat after 25 years (sears, banana links, scissor shackles, etc) is evidence of the training effectiveness. Mind you, these same NCOs were the ones that taught the desert survival course (had to eat the stew to graduate) and whose idea of fun was to be dropped in Death Valley with an aircrew survival kit and then proceed to hike across the desert to Mt Whitney. I am only personally aware of one F-4 ejection failure, and that occurred in 1986 after I had been posted from Edwards to the MoD(UK), so I don't know all the details. What I was told when I returned to Edwards described a situation unique to the F-4 that we had all been warned about, but could do little to avoid. The rear seat of the F-4 sits above ducting that carries very hot bleed air from the engines to the Boundary Layer Control (BLC) system in the wings. If that BLC ducting fails, it can dump the hot air beneath the cockpit and 'cook' the ejection seat rockets in the bottom of the seat. With the BLC and other associated failures, ejection was initiated, but only the front seat fired and the pilot survived. The flight test engineer, who I had sponsored in Test Pilot School, died in the crash. Really not a seat failure as much as an aircraft failure. Sven Old Viper Tester 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan B Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 By the time I worked on the F4 it was the Mk7 seat, I was always very careful getting in and out even though I had made sure the pins were all in. I should point out that the pull test I mentioned previously was always carried out only after the canopy firing pyrotechnics had been disabled by the 'Plumbers'. I say 'always' however there was a mighty big bang followed by a crash in the hanger once when someone hadn't read the work instruction thoroughly enough. After getting Tech Charged the unfortunate had the added punishment of fitting the new canopy which was not as easy as you might think as all replaceable panels arrived oversized and had to be cut down to size to fit. Duncan B 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene K Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) On 12/23/2015 at 8:56 AM, Giorgio N said: ... what about using the Revell F-4F cockpit ...? Well, I'm back from Grandkids' Christmas and enjoying catching up. Especially a great conversation going on about the seat. Not much to add, but I can post a little more about flags, the selector handle, and bags in the next few days. At Cam Rahn we had the Mk-7 seats as shown here in my previous post. About the Revell kit (which I REALLY (!) dislike because of shape issues (but engineering and molding is outstanding)), here are some measurements: As you can see, if you wanted to use the Revell piece, you'd have to widen it as appropriate. However, detailing the Hasegawa cockpits with a little modification to this set may be easier. Merry Christmas to all. Gene K Edited July 3, 2017 by Gene K 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAF Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) Gene, Merry Christmas! That's good info on the cockpits. I need to do some research on the 1/48th scale models. I thought I would post this link concerning the attributes and differences in the Hasegawa kits of the Phantom, F-15, F-16 & F-14. I'm sure most of the Phantom afficianados have already seen this. http://www.modelingmadness.com/splfeat/kr/has48d.htm If anyone has any comment concerning the information contained in this article, please let me know. I'm going to attempt to build an RF-4C out of the Hasegawa RF-4B USMC (kit # 07231) and am collecting information. Thanks! Gary Edited December 26, 2015 by GAF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene K Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) Boarding Ladder Giorgio asked me for some measurements of the boarding ladder in 1/72 so he could build the ladder from round stock versus flat PE: Â Right click on the picture above and "Save image as", then print at 100% to get the 1/72 scale image. The etched brass shown is from a company named Modeller - some detail and contact info here. Eduard Instructions are here. Ladders were yellow (as was rest of Ground Support Equipment), with a few having red "patches". Ladder rungs were coated in black/gray non slip coating, and were heavily weathered, to wit: Gene K (Edit - opps, Giorgio, I shouldn't have said the word "weathered") Edited July 3, 2017 by Gene K 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAF Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Gene, Concerning those ladders. Were they round or square? Look more square (rectangular) stock to me. If they were rectangular tubing, then the photoetch parts might be best, and just glue some strips of plastic on to give them depth. Thanks! Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene K Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) ... those ladders. Were they round or square? Round ... except the piece against the fuselage side, the top step, and the "hook" piece into the cockpit. Here's a great model showing the steps from different angles (but note that the the ladder top has a couple of pads that should rest on the canopy rail as opposed to the "loose" fit on that model ... see here). The Tamiya ladder also looks a little fat. Gene K Edited December 26, 2015 by Gene K 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted December 26, 2015 Author Share Posted December 26, 2015 (Edit - opps, Giorgio, I shouldn't have said the word "weathered") Weathered?? Who said that? Where? When? :D Well Gene, I should really do just a little bit of weathering on Sandy Bay-Bee, bit I'll keep it to a minimum, I promise ... Round ... except the piece against the fuselage side, the top step, and the "hook" piece into the cockpit. Here's a great model showing the steps from different angles (but note that the the ladder top has a couple of pads that should rest on the canopy rail as opposed to the "loose" fit on that model ... see here). The Tamiya ladder also looks a little fat. Great info on the boarding ladder, thanks! I'll be back soon-ish with an update Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Viper Tester Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 This picture shows the crew chief stowing the test engineer's seat pins in the red bag while the red bag for the pilot's seat is sitting on the cockpit sill. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/Phantomtoo/65-0850%206512ts%20920626%2016a_zpsnlzmlniv.jpg (Don't know why these are showing up as links. The direct address format used to show an image in the post. Very strange.) Sven Old Viper Tester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene K Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 (Don't know why these are showing up as links. The direct address format used to show an image in the post. Very strange.) Works as advertised, Sven. Gene K 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Gene, thanks a lot for the Revell cockpit explanation, I see that it would not be ideal to use. It also looks a bit short and the position of the pedals is not right. I should try to find a Monogram kit ! I share your dislike for the shapes of the Revell kit, it's a pity they got these wrong, could have been an outstanding kit. The eduard sheet you linked is one I've used on a number of Phantoms before (including a Fujimi one), it looks great and there's plenty of detail for the seats. I'm not sure I like the panels though, they look a bit 2-dimensional. Still, it's a very useful set and IMHO comes at a good price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hi everybody; I hope you all had a great Christmas! After some very interesting posts about seats, pins and other "real" things (thanks everybody for that, I'll never get tired of saying so ), here we go with a bit of a progress report about the model. I airbrushed the interior color, FS36231, using the corresponding Lifecolor pot, plus a bit of Matt White for scale effect. That was used as a base coat; I then sprayed over it the same mix with the addition of a smear of Light Blue, as all the F4 interiors I've seen in pictures have that kind of nuance under a direct light. Both mixes were thinned using Future Then I airbrushed some Matt Black (again, Lifecolor thinned with Future) on the seats parts and canopy sills and then started the detail painting job by brush; I've only painted the Matt Black areas so far: Still lots to do here. In between painting stages, I started working on the boarding ladder: first off, I printed and taped the template to a wood block: then put some nails in it to help bending the steel rods (paper clips, exactly the right diameter for the job): Then with a cutting disc and my Dremel, I sawed the short end at 45° and attached the corresponding "hooks" with CA. I'll let them harden before refining them. More tomorrow, hopefully. Ciao 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) HI everybody, quick update as promised; I started with some light drybrush on the tub and IPs to pick up details, using Lifecolor Light Gull Grey: Then I completed the pilot's IP: What I did was some detail painting with Lifecolor Matt white and red, then a Future coat, a dark acrylic wash, a matt coat (Lifecolor) and finally a few drops of Tamiya Gloss Clear for the gauges. Slowly making my way through painting the tub ... Comments welcome, as usual Ciao Edited December 28, 2015 by giemme 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fritag Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Nice neat work with the black Giorgio. Must have young eyes.......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 ....and steady young hands! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 Nice neat work with the black Giorgio. Must have young eyes.......... ....and steady young hands! Yeah, 45-years-old young eyes and hands :D Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 13 (14 very soon!) years younger than mine!! K 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spookytooth Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Steady work Giemme. The pit is looking great . Simon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted December 28, 2015 Author Share Posted December 28, 2015 13 (14 very soon!) years younger than mine!! K :D Steady work Giemme. The pit is looking great . Simon. Cheers Simon, thanks! Today I did some more detail painting on the tub and the seats, and tonight there's going to be more; I'd like to complete the interiors by tomorrow, then I'm gonna have to find something suitable to replace the tail fin pitot and probe, before I can button up the two fuselage halves. Tomorrow for some pics. Ciao 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaStix Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Looking good Giemme. Lovely, detailed progress in the cockpit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now