Mancunian airman Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 A friend of mine is trying to find information of Boston Havoc aircraft that flew out of Tempsford and carried out 'Radio Transmission work' He hasn't said what squadron operated these but would like to know of their colour scheme and if they had a solid or glass nose ??? In anticipation . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) Hi Not a great deal of help, but it may start the research journey off mentioned somewhere in a previous thread on BM was this photo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Charles_Pickard#/media/File%3ARoyal_Air_Force_Bomber_Command%2C_1942-1945._HU60540.jpg my wild guess would be it would be camo like the other squadron a/c the hudson a/c had a clear perspex nose so maybe the boston did as well cheers jerry Edited November 23, 2015 by brewerjerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-21 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) 138 Squadron operated a Boston AW399 coded MA;Z then S in PRU Blue overall from 7/42- Struck off charge 5/44. Also a Havoc BJ477 with Intruder nose, coded MA:V then R from 7/42 became a ground instruction airframe 12.43. Most likely this aircraft was all black scheme. I believe the aircraft were based at St.Eval. Edited November 23, 2015 by T-21 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 The most comprehensive book I know of dealing with SOE operations is Flights of the Forgotten, by Ken Merrick. In a quick look I couldn't find a reference to the Bostons, but believe they were to act as radio links to receive and re-transmit messages from the French Resistance, or SIS operatives in France. I have found a reference to 226 Sq including a special flight of 8 Mitchells in much this role immediately pre D-Day. Looking again I found a reference to a Havoc Flight in April 1943, including BJ477. Also an earlier reference in October 1943, referring to AW399/W and BJ477/V, at this time specifically detached to St. Eval to make contact with Breton fishing boats. The Flight had been formed as part of 161 Sq with AW399 and BJ466, the latter quickly replaced by BJ477. These are described as ex-French or Belgian contract aircraft (French, I suspect). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Hi A interesting link https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NuKwBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=boston+aw399&source=bl&ots=MuOrnaMZLI&sig=ArRM1vdHitodG4tquxbFnguv4wg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil65fY5KfJAhVIo4gKHVZ7DbsQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=boston%20aw399&f=false It lists AW399 as being with 161Sq arriving from 88Sq in feb 42 to dec 43 list BJ477 coming from 23 Sq feb 42 to dec 43 Ilooks an interesting book, I may have to keep my eye out for one cheers jerry Edited November 24, 2015 by brewerjerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 138 Squadron operated a Boston AW399 coded MA;Z then S in PRU Blue overall from 7/42- Struck off charge 5/44. Also a Havoc BJ477 with Intruder nose, coded MA:V then R from 7/42 became a ground instruction airframe 12.43. Most likely this aircraft was all black scheme. I believe the aircraft were based at St.Eval. Hi I like the idea of PRU Blue it would make a nice model cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 A photo appears in the book `RAF fBomber Command 1936-68', see below; There is a copy here for sale for 1p,......what a steal as it is an excellent book!; http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1852603089?keywords=BOMBER%20COMMAND%201936&qid=1448387766&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2 Cheers Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) 1p ? Don't tell me, postage is £25 £2.81 inc p&p,just checked! Edited November 24, 2015 by bzn20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 138 Squadron operated a Boston AW399 coded MA;Z then S in PRU Blue overall from 7/42- Struck off charge 5/44. Also a Havoc BJ477 with Intruder nose, coded MA:V then R from 7/42 became a ground instruction airframe 12.43. Most likely this aircraft was all black scheme. I believe the aircraft were based at St.Eval. Are you able to disclose your source as I'd like a copy if it is available in book/magazine form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelldoc Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 IT's another book: Flight Most Secret - Air Missions for SOE and SIS from Gibb McCall. William Kimber &Co Ltd. London 1981. There is no pic from the Bosten, but it's noticed the Boston. modelldoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 138 Squadron operated a Boston AW399 coded MA;Z then S in PRU Blue overall from 7/42- Struck off charge 5/44. Also a Havoc BJ477 with Intruder nose, coded MA:V then R from 7/42 became a ground instruction airframe 12.43. Most likely this aircraft was all black scheme. I believe the aircraft were based at St.Eval. Got some of the source material - a photo in Flights of the Forgotten shows Havoc I AW399 coded Z with an intruder type nose and the additional VHF aerials painted in a light colour overall, captioned as cerulean PRU blue. There is a suggestion of a different shade around the code letter / roundel - quite possible as the text suggests this a/c was originally with the High Altitude Flight so would probably have been recoded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Hi Is AW399 code letter aft of the fuselage roundel ? and does it say what colour the letter is ? cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The code letter is aft of the roundel. The picture appears to be taken on ortho film, for the red of the roundel and the fin flash is darker than the blue. The code letter appears to have the same tone as the blue, certainly lighter than the red. The aircraft appears very light overall, which is common for some blue paints on ortho film (presumably when taken with a certain filter) but I don't think I've seen a PRU Blue aircraft looking so light. The link to the High Altitude Flight makes me wonder about the description of the colour - could it be the similar Deep Sky?. Just a thought. I kick myself for not looking at the photos in Flights of the Forgotten! Combat Codes has BJ477 as MA.R 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Cerulean PRU Blue and High Altitude Flight does sound like Deep Sky blue except that it is less reflective (and therefore darker) than PRU blue - 8% vs 14%. Deep Sky was devised by the RAE during 1941 for high altitude under surfaces which began in January 1941 with Azure Blue. That was considered too light and by May the colour had been darkened by 30% and the new colour, called 'Ultra Blue', was discovered to be similar to an existing Titanine paint colour called 'Cosmic Blue' (which later became PRU Blue). That was still considered too light and two further colours called Dark Ultra Blue and Extra Dark Ultra Blue were devised for trials in June. A&AEE got involved in August 1941 suggesting that the new colour should be a duller and completely matt version of Extra Dark Ultra Blue. After the A&AEE trials the RAE sent a sample to MAP suggesting the name Deep Sky and noting that it was more matt than Type S Sky to eliminate sun glinting. The colour then became involved with the introduction of the Fortress to the RAF and further to-ing and fro-ing occurred. The issue around this development record is that PRU Blue and Deep Sky are not differentiated just by their degrees of lightness/darkness. PRU Blue is a Munsell Blue and Deep Sky a Munsell Purple Blue. PRU Blue is lighter than Deep Sky but has a lower saturation, the former a slightly greyish-green blue and the latter a stronger, brighter blue. Nick 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Unfortunately I don't think the true reflectance is a good indication here - the aircraft appears to be white or a very light grey. It is reminiscent of the appearance of Extra Dark Sea Grey in the much-discussed Ark Royal Skua photo, or the abandoned Sea Gladiator on Malta (the last wartime picture). The aircraft appears to be a lot lighter than the Blue in the roundel, if that's any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Roundel Dull Blue is about 4% and Bright Blue about 8% - same as Deep Sky but a different blue. If the roundels were Dull Blue they would look darker but I haven't seen either photo referred to. I can't imagine why Extra Dark Sea Grey at 10% should appear white or a very light grey unless it was very badly chalked but I did notice some strange photographic effects in colour images of the modern RAF Typhoon where the grey looks almost off-white. An illumination effect probably. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 I admit I'm unable to explain the colours from the photo - as Graham says the letter does not appear to be the same as the red of the roundel so if we dip into the RAF colouring box the next most likely colour of the letter to my mind is Medium Sea Grey - which would make the overall colour quite pale - Sky perhaps? Or the dreaded Sky Blue? I don't think I could support anything darker unless there was a strong film/filtration effect going on and I'm not sure about ortho film as I can imagine a yellow ring to the roundel and I don't think there is any strong filtration used as there are reasonable shadows but the sky is still pale so not a strong red, yellow or orange filter if normal film. The photo is credited to M.Whinney - the pilot - and correspondence with him is cited in various places in the text so (theorising) the description of PRU Blue probably came from that source by way of some form of remote discussion and not by viewing of colour chips, in which case it could be misidentified. Seems like one of those cases where if you can justify it to yourself you can use whatever colours you like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 A photo appears in the book `RAF fBomber Command 1936-68', see below; There is a copy here for sale for 1p,......what a steal as it is an excellent book!; http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1852603089?keywords=BOMBER%20COMMAND%201936&qid=1448387766&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2 Cheers Tony The same photo as in Flights of the Forgotten but a bit bigger and better. Captioned as "One of the two PRU Blue Havocs, AW399/X..." in spite of the letter Z on the side! The VHF aerials show up more clearly too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 A photo appears in the book `RAF fBomber Command 1936-68', see below; There is a copy here for sale for 1p,......what a steal as it is an excellent book!; http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1852603089?keywords=BOMBER%20COMMAND%201936&qid=1448387766&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2 Cheers Tony It really IS £0.01 !! Plus quite modest postage within UK but as Tony says, a steal! Just ordered mine - it looks as though there are a couple more available for £0.01. Thanks for highlighting it, Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 No worries and glad you got a copy,.......I paid full price or mine when it came out!!! Then again I`m always using it so it has paid for itself,.....but 1p! Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 No worries and glad you got a copy,.......I paid full price or mine when it came out!!! Then again I`m always using it so it has paid for itself,.....but 1p! Cheers Tony there are quite a lot of 1p bargains on Amazon if you pay attention, older titles that are around in quantity, some stand out are the double packs of Spitfire at War 1 &2, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Alfred-Price/dp/B0014EGW9O and Lancaster at war 1 and 2, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lancaster-Mike-Garbett/dp/1856480550 400 pages each, at least that many photos, with good captions, but there are plenty more if you browse. New details can be spotted on every browse Hurricane at war/Messerschmitt 109 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hurricane-Messerschmitt-Chaz-Bowyer/dp/1856481484 Many of the single volumes are available for 1p and post, the pages are glossy but the content the same... a little off topic but great books at bargain prices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancunian airman Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 Thanks for the interest shown chaps . . . Certainly got something to be looking into now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDGboy Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Air Enthusiast 2007-04, "Cloak and Dagger" by R.Clarke, Havoc I AW399 MA-Z in PRU Blue 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 There appears to be a darker upper surface. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancunian airman Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 Difficult to tell although there is a feint line along the top of the rear fuselage that gives that impression . . .. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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