Humbrol Silver - what is wrong with it?

[robvulcan]

I've had problems with new Humbrol as well. I started buying Revell again and found they were far better, that matts anyway. There's a big Guagemaster store near here that stocks both. I was told a lot of their recent production was outsourced to Thailand...

Really I have heard a few say this. I must say I have recently gone back to Enamels and still have some 20 Year old tins and I find the new stuff is very good indeed especially when I thin it with SWAN Lighter fluid it brushes like a dream and sure it would spray just as well.

Daler Rowney low odur thinners works great too

[vince14]

The sooner we leave the EU and rid ourselves of this legleslative rubbish the better.

...except the UK voted for the VOC 2010 regulations...

Don't blame the EU. Blame Humbrol for being unable to create a decent product within the regulations.

[Julien]

Looks like you have tins from the stuff they had made in China. Now production has moved back to the uk the paint quality is better. You have to be careful buying it as there is still old stuff out there.

They currently have other production problems (not the paint) which are holding up deliveries I am told.

Julien

[Seahawk]

I've been buying stocks of "old" Humbrol on ebay, some of it 50+ years old in the blue plaid tinlets, and some discontinued colors such as Eau de Nil and Yellow (number 8, very useful for US Navy Orange Yellow on biplane upper wings). It's every bit as good as it was when first produced. There's nothing like the sweet smell of vintage Humbrol enamel in the morning.

Used some Humbrol HG1 Schwarzgruen from when they first came out (can you tell I don't focus on Luftwaffe?) on some propeller blades the other day. Dried quickly to an even, smooth, absolutely matt finish. It used not to be rocket science. Still, no doubt 3000 icebergs suffered as a result of my wicked act.

[steelpillow]

I recall 191 from long ago being a nice consistency which steadily thickened through use. Some of my best silver finishes are 191 brushed straight from a young tin 40 years ago.

A couple of years ago I bought a new tin. Thin, runny stuff all right and with poor covering power when brushed on and a dodgy finish. EXCEPT: then I took a trick from the top-quality airbrush products and gave it an undercoat of shiniest gloss black. Magic! The silver comes up nice and shiny! Thickness is critical. A second brush-coat can be added if the first was too thin, but it does begin to lose the glossy shine.

Gold leaf is traditionally laid over a red undercoat, and on occasion that has worked well for me with gold paint.

I wonder whether this latest problem across the board could be resolved by finding the right undercoat, or whether it really is the disaster area this thread suggests.

Edited November 15, 2015 by steelpillow

[wizard4]

I recently sent back 6 tins of humbrol matt 27 as it was either staying sticky or shiny, they have sent me back 6 new tins and they seem to be better, but I did find the paint is very thick, as for humbrol silver I do remember it had this habit of coming away on your finger, these days I spray the model with car primer, and use car paint if I can get the colour I want, I had some arctic silver left over and used that, which was fine, i used it on my BMW Z3 kit as I had bought it for my real Z3 car,

Cheers

Ray

[bzn20]

Every now and again I've had to return Humbrol back to the shop. I went through a period (a long time ago) of every matt black was satin finish. I've had silver paint probs a few times too. They were just a problem batch. If doesn't do what it says on the tin its back to the shop and money back,not exchange. as the chances are the shops stock is the all same batch unless he can show you its a different batch.

[Knight_Flyer]

I wonder whether this latest problem across the board could be resolved by finding the right undercoat, or whether it really is the disaster area this thread suggests.

It might do for the metallic's although I still find it takes a bit of work to get the paint to the right consistency where it will brush. The old tin's took only a few stirs and it was ready. EU regulations appears to be the likely reason for the change and not much we can do about it. At least it's not impossible to use otherwise Humbrol would have gone out of business due to no one buying their paint.

[John Irwing]

Now only use Hu11 as an undercoat for Aquacolor metallics.

[mirageiv]

If you want a metallic silver enamel I have found Revell enamel 90, thinned with various thinner sand especially Mr.Color levelling thinner, to be very good. It gives a very uniform silver/metallic (more silver) appearance instead of the corse, pixellated Humbrol stuff in my opinion. After trying a lot of the recent Humbrol enamels I have decided to stop using them, thinned with all sorts and different pressure ratios, they still dry to a really really corse, almost sandpaper like texture .

Also about needing a primer, I thin enamels and acrylics with Mr.Color (I think its lacquer thinner) and it never needs a primer. Very very durable and doesn't lift with masking at all. Just my experience if you are having lifting paints etc..

Edited November 15, 2015 by mirageiv

[roymattblack]

.......Gold leaf is traditionally laid over a red undercoat, and on occasion that has worked well for me with gold paint.

Nope.

Traditionally, Gold leaf is laid over gilders size - which is yellow.

I was a gilder for 'a few' years, and even gilded the throne and canopy for the throne room, for the Sultan of Bruneii.

I've even been tempted to gild some kit parts in the past, as believe it or not, real gold leaf and gilding size isn't as expensive as you might think....

Roy.

Edited November 15, 2015 by roymattblack

[steelpillow]

Nope.

Traditionally, Gold leaf is laid over gilders size - which is yellow.

I was a gilder for 'a few' years, and even gilded the throne and canopy for the throne room, for the Sultan of Bruneii.

I've even been tempted to gild some kit parts in the past, as believe it or not, real gold leaf and gilding size isn't as expensive as you might think....

Roy.

That's interesting. So I googled it.

The general consensus appears to be that gilders size is the adhesive layer between the base colour or "bole" and the gold leaf.

Top hit http://www.studioarts.co.uk/links/hintsandtips/gildinggoldleafhintsandtips.htm says bole is a dark reddish-brown.

Next hit https://www.goldleafsupplies.co.uk/how_to/how_to.php?ID=1 says to use red.

At http://www.artsparx.com/how_to_gold_leaf.asp we are told, "the traditional terra-cotta color adds warmth to both gold and silver leaf. A black 'bole' color creates a hard, cold look - often appropriate for Art Deco pieces, and the like. A yellow 'bole' color evens out the overall appearance, and diminishes any cracks or 'holidays' with in the gilded surface."

Food for the metallic finisher's thought indeed.

Edited November 15, 2015 by steelpillow

[roymattblack]

Not in the least fussed about what Googling says although I'm not disputing it...

I was a Gilder for many years.

Gilding size is like a thick-ish 'sticky' yellow paint.

It was applied by brush, left to go off for about 1/2 an hour and then the gold leaf was applied.

'Cheaper' leaf is like a thin layer attached to a kind of tissue backing.

It's laid on the size, and then the tissue layer is peeled off.

'Proper' gold leaf is a thin layer of gold. You lift it with a gilders tip - a kind of thin knife - never actually touch it as it will adhere to your skin almost instantly.

It's laid on the size in a kind of 'floating' motion so it lays flat and not wrinkled. (Actually, wrinkles don't really matter as they dab out with the gilders brush - very much like a ladies thick fluffy make-up brush.)

Leave it all to dry for about 24 hours, then burnish with the back of a stainless steel tea spoon. NEVER a soft cloth or duster.

There certainly are other kinds of size, or base layer, but any gilder will say that the yellow size is without doubt the best.

I gilded the 'prayer' around the top of the canopy, (the 8 - panel section) and the detail on the upper throne.

The Sultan of Bruneii was happy with my work...

#

Edited November 15, 2015 by roymattblack

[Space Ranger]

Figure painters I have known used yellow as a primer for gold paint.

[vontrips]

Not in the least fussed about what Googling says although I'm not disputing it...

I was a Gilder for many years.

Gilding size is like a thick-ish 'sticky' yellow paint.

It was applied by brush, left to go off for about 1/2 an hour and then the gold leaf was applied.

'Cheaper' leaf is like a thin layer attached to a kind of tissue backing.

It's laid on the size, and then the tissue layer is peeled off.

'Proper' gold leaf is a thin layer of gold. You lift it with a gilders tip - a kind of thin knife - never actually touch it as it will adhere to your skin almost instantly.

It's laid on the size in a kind of 'floating' motion so it lays flat and not wrinkled. (Actually, wrinkles don't really matter as they dab out with the gilders brush - very much like a ladies thick fluffy make-up brush.)

Leave it all to dry for about 24 hours, then burnish with the back of a stainless steel tea spoon. NEVER a soft cloth or duster.

There certainly are other kinds of size, or base layer, but any gilder will say that the yellow size is without doubt the best.

I gilded the 'prayer' around the top of the canopy, (the 8 - panel section) and the detail on the upper throne.

The Sultan of Bruneii was happy with my work...

#

Nice job Roy! You forgot to mention having to hold your breath when applying the gold leaf! I appear to have done the same job as you, though my gliding was on a smaller scale. Conversely, I use Japanese size (which is translucent brown). Had good results on restorations using just shellac and gold powder pigments. Planning on using this technique for future modelling projects. Edited November 16, 2015 by vontrips

[SleeperService]

What a most interesting thread.

The UK made Humbrol has a small Union Jack on it. The Chinese stuff doesn't. I wouldn't blame the VOC regs as Revell will be dealing with the same and their paint is much better. Personally I think profit could be the sticking point, it usually is in concerns afflicted with 'The British Management Disease'.

[roymattblack]

My new little tin has a Union flag on it...

It's terrible gloopy, oily, transparent gunge.

Roy.

[steelpillow]

@roymattblack, I'm not disputing your craftsman's knowledge, just trying to add a little broader perspective. Certainly, the Renaissance masterpieces I have seen in art galleries etc. tend to show the warm, brownish-red undercoat where the gold leaf has worn through. I can well appreciate that for your beautiful Islamic art, a more etherial yellow would be appropriate.

In the same vein, it is interesting that when a "hard" silver is wanted, both Art Deco and modern airbrush techniques find black to be more suitable. I would have assumed white, as being more reflective, but when I tried it the silver finish lacked depth and lustre.

PVA adhesive is an example of one which goes on white and dries translucent if not clear. Does gilders size stay opaque when dry or does it go translucent like PVA does?

[steelpillow]

Revell will be dealing with the same and their paint is much better.

I bought some Revell silver a couple of years back. It was was very thick and gloopy, and when I thinned it enough to use it lost its covering power. The Humbrol 191 I bought at the same time was much better (once I grokked the black undercoat).

[Space Ranger]

In the same vein, it is interesting that when a "hard" silver is wanted, both Art Deco and modern airbrush techniques find black to be more suitable. I would have assumed white, as being more reflective, but when I tried it the silver finish lacked depth and lustre.

At a recent demonstration of some of the new Vallejo metallic finishes by an IPMS-USA award-winning modeler, we were informed that their Chrome (and other brands as well) is somewhat transparent and needs to be applied in thin coats over a gloss black primer so as to remain somewhat transparent. It is this transparency, combined with the underlying black primer, that creates the "chrome" appearance. Other silvery "natural metal" finishes do not require a black undercoat.

Achieving a "chrome" finish is somewhat of a trial-and-error process. Spray thin coats, and when it looks like chrome, stop! Any more paint will only dull the finish.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Space Ranger