JWM Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Hi, I am considering conversion of Academy B24 into Liberator Mk I in Coastal Command markings. I know there is a lot to change, but this promises a lot of fun of modelling, isn't? . There are some interesting particular machine for consideration. For exampele there was and fameous "u boot killer" - AM929 while serving in 120 Sqn she sunk 5 u-boots. In profile published here: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/327/9/2(which is taken from Polish monography of Liberator) this particular machine has no 4-canon instalation in front bomb bay. It is true? The all known remaining 120 Sqn (and all MK I CC) machines have it. Why this machine has not? It served later in 231 Sqn as transport machine (converted to C. Mk I) and crashed on 9th May '45 (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?15568-Liberator-AM929-231-Sqn-9-April-1945) - so perhaps in these times she did not have those cannons, the whole pack was for sure romoved for transport purposes - but when she was a "U-boot killer" she should had them, why not? There is also a story about her: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=692997334159191&id=340758036049791&comment_id=693570777435180&reply_comment_id=693662130759378&total_comments=2&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D How about the Leight light? Did CC Liberators Mk I have it? I have found photo in Net, but those details are not visible: http://www.ulsteraviationsociety.org/coastal-command-ni-ww2/4537284196(photo No 4) from photo here: http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/black-26-white-photos/p20054-consolidated-liberator-grmk1.html it seems that there was no such light - when it was installed on GRV it was moved a bit forward regarding the leading edge of wing and was visible from such angle. I hope some BM experts know the answers... EDIT: The another interesting mashine is AM924 http://www.revi.cz/images/covers/78/revi_78_26_27.jpg and AM923 Regards Jerzy-Wojtek Edited October 23, 2015 by JWM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 AM929 did not have the 20mm gun package, but did have the two-colour uppersurface camouflage of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey. There is a photo of her in J.D. Oughton's The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service. I don't believe that the Mk.Is were fitted with the Leigh Light, but don't know of any specific description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Thank you Graham for confirming lack of four canon set. However - Is it anything paculiar with EDSG/DSG top camo for CC plane? I thought it was typical... J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The artwork just shows the later EDSG only, which was around for longer with the White sides. EDSG/DSG was normal for earlier colours, but only lasted for a short while (excuse me not actually quoting dates) after the White came in. However, it seems that there was some reluctance to repaint the larger aircraft, and some Halifaxes were seen with the 2-colour tops into 1944. I suspect the Liberator Mk.Is will not have been repainted either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 24, 2015 Author Share Posted October 24, 2015 Thank you Graham. This photo: http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/black-26-white-photos/p20054-consolidated-liberator-grmk1.html show EDSG/DSG+white on AM929, H and it is described as from 1943 - if it is true she was in standard markings for thees years and CC machine. Still I am thinking why there is oppinion that the AM929 was not converted to have 4 pack cannon set and after that this particular machina was so sucessfull as "u-boat killer". ... Since trasnport command machines had also EDSG/DSG/Sky (or Azure Blue) at the end of war I suspect it was the repainted back to this kind of camo while converted back to transport role. Moreover in Net I found that despite what is preseneted on profile of AM929 from Polish monography this machine, as other Lib Mk I was equiped with cannon pack and ASR, but this is not supported by any photo. So I am not sure, http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/54123-liberator-i-am929-h-120-sqn/ It is said there: "AM929 was the last LB.30B to be delivered arriving in the UK on 20th August 1941, She went to Boscombe Down on 2nd September 1941 for bomb sight and diving trials, from there the aircraft went to Scottish Aviation Ltd at Prestwick for modifications - ASV and the four 20mm cannon pack. AM929 didn't arrive at 120 Squadron until August 1942. AM929 remained with 120 Squadron until 1944 when she returned to Prestwick where the armament and and ASV were removed and the aircraft was modified for transport work." So please, whould you tell the source of claiming, that this machine while served in CC Sqn 120 had no four gun set. Best regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 The reference I'm using is Air Britain's "The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service", by the late James D. Oughton. He researched the aircraft over thirty years, and his work was posthumously edited by John F Hamlin with help from Andrew Thomas. The Polish description is (effectively) a summary of the longer history of AM929 (and all other Liberators covered by the title) in this book, which is clearly largely taken from the appropriate Aircraft Record Card(s), expanded by additional knowledge. The aircraft was at Scottish Aviation as described above, but the text says "converted to Liberator Mk.I (Operationally Equipped) with modified ASV MK.II radar but no 20mm cannon." This was both later and took considerably longer than the other Mk.I (Operationally Equipped) aircraft, which were converted taking some two months in 1941. This appears to have been a conversion with low priority and perhaps the cannon were no longer available. Possibly the original build order for these packs had not allowed for AM929 turning up later, or possibly the conversion was delayed waiting for such parts which never arrived. I suspect we'll never know, unless there is something in SAL's records that Oughton missed (or simply was thought not to matter for the book). Oughton's book has another photo of AM929 in this scheme, very similar but taken from the other side, presumably on the same sortie. So similar it appears to be a reversed image but for the camouflage pattern. The asymmetric upper-wing roundel is interesting. There may well, of course, be another that shows the absence of the gun pack, but if so I don't recall seeing it. However, AM929 is mentioned elsewhere in the book, in an accounting of the early deliveries and their fates. Here it does say that the aircraft was modified with ASV and cannon, but only as an aside rather than the fuller account in the individual aircraft record. I find it easy to understand why it was assumed that the aircraft had the full fit, but difficult to see why the point should specifically be made that it did not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 24, 2015 Author Share Posted October 24, 2015 Thank you Graham, for such extesive clarification. The shortages of equipment during war can explain the differencie. By the way - the "modifird ASV radar" apparently has no all antenas which are typical for other Mk I CC Liberators. Or - is it visible in some way and I have not noticed it? Regards J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 The text says "modified ASV Mk.II radar" but doesn't define that. Clearly the dorsal masts are missing, but I can't see the others apart from the nose and (maybe) the wing-mounted ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) On p139 of Search Find and Kill by Norman Franks there is an account of the sinking of U-540 in which the commander of AM929, Bryan Turnbull, states he made an initial cannon attack. In the photo of AM929 linked above it is possible to imagine the wing ASV antenna, a nose antenna is clearly present and there is something by the H that could be a fuselage side antenna - the others could be 'lost' by the quality of the photo. Photos of other Liberators, albeit GR.IIIs, show this configuration without the large dorsal aerials. PS - the officail change from 2-colour to single colour uppersurfaces came somewhere between October 1942 and February 1943 - I believe to save time in painting as the effect of the camouflage was negligible. The demarcation between upper and lower surfaces also moved upwards at the same time so that any view presented to a U-Boat was entirely white (or silver in the case of the de-icing boots). I think aircraft already in the 2 colour scheme would probably have had white paint added to move the demarcation but not changed to the single colour uppersurfaces until they had some major servicing work done. See my page http://hrmtech.com/SIG/articles/coastal_cam.asp for all I can find on Coastal camouflage. Edited October 24, 2015 by rossm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Hi All A webpage thread on early RAF libs http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/16347-early-liberator-aircraft-in-raf-service/ Cheers Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 This should be quite a project. Shortening the nose is a major conversion. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 24, 2015 Author Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Bingo! - I kept searching in net and found. There is a photo of "H" WITH cannon pack seen: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01367.006 Thanks Graham, Ross, Jerry and Chris for sharing with your knowledge and willing for help. Still I am not sure how it is with aerials or antenas - but at this photo something is seen on the bottom of roundel. On the profile from Polish monography it is displayed on side - but I would prefere to see it on photo... Regards Jerzy-Wojtek Edited October 24, 2015 by JWM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Didn't know the Lib. I had the LB30 configuation re the nose and engines. Anyways I cannot contribute but this is a very interesting topic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Bingo! - I kept searching in net and found. There is a photo of "H" WITH cannon pack seen: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01367.006 Thanks Graham, Ross, Jerry and Chris for sharing with your knowledge and willing for help. Still I am not sure how it is with aerials or antenas - but at this photo something is seen on the bottom of roundel. On the profile from Polish monography it is displayed on side - but I would prefere to see it on photo... Regards Jerzy-Wojtek I would guess, and would be confident enough to build the model, that the aerials would be the same as in this photo http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205369361 but without the big aerials on top of the fuselage. I know there aren't even traces of the wing aerials - there are in you first photo to my eyes, as there are of the fuselage aerials in the second photo - but note how they are hard to see in the IWM photo as well. The aerials would then be similar to this configuration http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205210804 albeit the fuselage aerials are in the lower position that seems to be associated with the Lib Mk.I. It may be circumstantial evidence in that there could be traces of aerial in those positions in your two photos plus a photo showing that configuration did exist on other Liberators but it would be good enough for me. Somewhere I'm sure I've read about the evolution of ASV through the Marks I, II and III but I can't remember where...aaargh! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 There are a number of photos of GR Mk.Vs with the nose Yagi aerial and no visible aerials on the rear fuselage or wing. What may be relevant is the thread on this site dealing with the Beaufighter Mk.X, which shows two thin aerials, angled forward, on the nose of the Beaufighter, together with the Yagi. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234988982-beaufighter-tfx-wing-armament-question/ This is described as an ASV fit. It appears likely to me that this is the fit on the Liberator, although I've been unable to make out the thin aerials on the nose in the photos - they aren't always particularly visible on the Beaufighter either. If AM929 was, as claimed, fitted with "modified ASV" then this could be it. Alternatively, it could have had the full fit which was then replaced by this later device. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 Many thanks for advices - I found interesting testimony in page: http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/07752.php "....I met Bryan Turnbull DFC some years ago at the first 120 Squadron reunion in Scotland. During his time with 120 he was credited with a share in the sinking of U 540 in Liberator I AM929 H/120, along with Liberator BZ712 D/59 on 17 October 1943.Turnbull and his crew had been tasked to support Convoy ONS20 and in searching along the convoys track, sighted a surfaced U-boat (U 540. KL Kasch). Running into the attack Turnbull became aware of another Liberator, D/59 (Flt.Lt Knowles) also moving in for the attack. Turnbull attacked with the four 20mm ventral cannon hoping to confuse the German gunners and draw flack away from the other Liberator. Following the attack made by D/59 the U-boat remained on the surface and was then subjected to two attacks by Turnbull. The submarine broke in half, sinking with all hands...." Perhaps the final question I would like to discuss. IN Photo from my post #12 there some kind of "shadow" below the pilot cockpit. There should be a samll red table as on all Liberators perhaps, but it looks differently. Can it be something like nose art? Or marking of U-boot sunk (a victory emblem)? Was it in habit in Coastal Command? It was in US Navy and in Luftwaffe, but... Regards Jerzy-Wojtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 The only Coastal Command nose art I know of is this http://www.war44.com/german-u-boats/1790-liberator-versus-u-boat.html carried by a GR.V flown by T.Bulloch attached to 224 Squadron (but not part of it, I think he was with A&AEE at the time evaluating rockets on the Liberator). I also have a Kanga decal sheet showing a Whitley VII with kill markings but I have no documentary proof this is correct. I think one aircraft could be flown by different crews (they might need a day off after a 12+ hour sortie but the aircraft wouldn't). However Bulloch's rocket armed trials aircraft would obviously only be flown by him and his crew, at least until the armament came into general use, so it could carry his personal markings. Graham's thoughts on the radar are interesting but I can convince myself I can see traces of the 8 dipole aerials on the lower rear fuselage in both photos and wing aerials in the first photo so you'll have to take your pick. I think Liberators had nose mounted pitots about where you might expect aerials of the Beaufighter type so be careful! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Don't rule out the fact that the antennae may have been removed from pics by the censor - certainly the case with Coastal Command B17s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Agreed about the censor, but there are enough very clear photos of B.Mk.Vs in Oughton's book to rule it out in their case. Not necessarily all. I'd work on the assumption that if at least one aerial is visible in the existing photo, then the censor will not have removed any others. One out, all out! Some CC Liberator photos do show something below the pitots, but none I've seen are convincingly these forward-raked aerials. I agree that the photos of AM929 do look rather as if it does have the side fuselage poles, but not clearly. Edited October 25, 2015 by Graham Boak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Maas Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Didn't know the Lib. I had the LB30 configuation re the nose and engines. Anyways I cannot contribute but this is a very interesting topic Liberator 1's were LB-30A's (originally YB-24's), Liberator II's were production examples and were LB-30B's. The USAAF got some examples of both runs but the majority went to the RAF. Edited October 26, 2015 by Adam Maas 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Looking at a very large version of this picture (https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01367.006) there is no evidence of fuselage or wing aerials. There is what appears to be another aerial on the nose, angled forward as in the description above but lower down than those depicted here https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P01367.002There is no evidence of censorship at all.On the nose there is indeed "something" which could be nose art but you can decide for yourself........... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 There is what appears to be another aerial on the nose, angled forward as in the description above but lower down than those depicted here I believe that's the pitot. It moved up on later variants, and then (I think) disappeared still later, when a different style was fitted. bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Yes, that's the correct position for the pitot on short-nose Liberators. Longer-nose ones initially had it slightly further forward (in relation to the window), then it moved upwards as Bob says. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 Many thanks Gents for your efforts to solve the problem. Ed - in your enlargement of nose from post #21 the pitot tube is for sure - it should be there: Interesting - the horizontal structures behind it looks a bit like a silhouettes of U-boats as victory marks, but there are too many of them for sure. Could it be a set of marks used for sorties? Below cockpit there is small strange shape object which can be the nose art. BTW - on some Czech web page I have found article from Revi (name of Journal?) with examples of nose arts on LIberators from Coastal Command, even for sister machine from the same squadron, the AM924. BTW - there is also a very interesting rocket equipped GR Mk V. Beeing inspired by Ed (THX!), I tried his method - so a huge enlargement of basicly poor quality photo - I I found two "suspected" structures: On the side of fuselage, there is (?) some horizontal structure in region of side roundel and in letter H - they looks like a white bar with darker (?) antenas (I agree that some good will be needed to be sure about it ): However - I will vote now for 8 bars with antenas on side. Is anybody see it also? Especially that they are right on the place. And in wing there is also something what perhaps is a trace of cenzor work and not sufficient remove of antenas: Cheers Jerzy-Wojtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimHead23 Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I'm very interested in this project as I would like to construct an early Liberator using the Academy as a basis. I was wondering how you how going to go about it as the nose and engines at least would need considerable work? Are there any ready available conversion sets out there or are you attempting the nose shortening and nacelle rounding from scratch? Any advice would be really appreciated. Regards Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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