A Valiant Attempt (1/72 Suez Crisis Airfix Valiant)

[general melchett]

I'm thinking the intakes were silver on the early birds?

Correct...

[Ascoteer]

I had not heard about the Columbian Herk but I did often think of the RAF one which went into the Med off Sicily while carrying paras,...was it in 1969 or the early 70`s? I don`t think that many, if any survived that one?

That was XV216 from 24 Sqn. Flew into the sea off Sardinia killing all 52 on board. 9 Nov 1971. It was the 2nd Albert lost by the RAF.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Ascoteer

[Procopius]

NBC prep is fascinating to me in the context of the Cold War...uh, while I have your attention, how many of you in the forces during that time thought war would be likely, and did you expect it to go nuclear?

[tonyot]

NBC prep is fascinating to me in the context of the Cold War...uh, while I have your attention, how many of you in the forces during that time thought war would be likely, and did you expect it to go nuclear?

Thought that it might to the first,.....hoped that it didn`t last that long for the second! In the mid to late 80`s I thought that it was 50-50 whether Ivan would be so silly as to start anything but prior to the wall going down it could have been dodgy if Gorbachov hadn`t been in power.

I`d be interested in hearing what my more learned friends think,

Cheers

Tony

Edited October 20, 2015 by tonyot

[Ascoteer]

Well it always went nuclear at the end of every TACEVAL!

TBH the Nuclear side didn't scare me half as much as the Chemical side, especially given the fact that the Ruskies viewed chemicals as merely another weapon and were expected to use them virtually from Day 1. Certainly on airfields and high value targets such as Fighter Control units.

My BSc is in medical biology/bichemistry so I have a good understanding of the effects of organophosphates upon the mammalian neurotransmission feedback loop. So to say that things like Sarin and VX terrify me would be an enormous understatement. It's a horrible (and very scarey) way to die.

Having said that, my take on it is that, had Ivan rolled across the IGB we would have had to resort to using Buckets of Instant Sunshine (at least at Tactical level)... Whether this would have escalated into a Stategic Exchange is a moot point. The chances are that where I was would be where the first AS4 Kitchen would land anyway.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Ascoteer

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

...compile an oral history of the RAF in the Cold War...

A history of the WHAT...?

;-)

[Procopius]

And FAA!

But I will confess, my immediate thought is that the RAF one is easier to do as a complete history by focusing on aircrew and operations. There's a lot more breadth to the roles of the Royal Navy during the Cold War. Always been fascinated by the Cod Wars.

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

One of the many things I love about this site is the fact that someone can post "like a human version of the Great Panjandrum" and be pretty confident that almost everyone will know exactly what you mean!

AR5 / whistling handbag. It must have come in around the time I did my Lynx conversion (1989), because I certainly don't recall any of that malarkey on Sea Kings. Lynx crews were progressively trained in the bloody thing, with priority (gee, thanks) given to those deploying to the Gulf. Broadsword was in the plan to do a Gulf trip in 1991, so muggins here did the whistling handbag course, complete with terrifying dunker runs with the anti-drown valve that made you think you were drowning,

Then the Gulf started getting a bit silly, and the Grown-Ups decreed that Broadsword didn't have the right jammer fit, so we swapped our programme with Brilliant. We got to spend 2 months in the Caribbean and 4 in the Falklands, and Brillo went off to war. Gutted, me. Not. (I watched the Gulf War on TV at Guantanamo Bay, in the days before anyone had ever heard of it; we were flying missile profiles to work up the US Navy, based ashore and having a complete blast.)

Up til now we'd rather been playing at the AR5 (& I shudder to think what ARs1-4 must have been like!); the odd exercise, OST (TACEVAL equivalent), and so on, plus some carefully supervised flying with safety pilots and stuff. But the poor sods who went off to deal with Saddam had to work up in it for real. As Debs says, it was horrendous enough in the UK; now think about flying in it at low level in the Gulf. Gloucester Flight (David Livingstone & Martin "Florrie" Ford, now immortalised by having their cab in the FAA Museum) did their initial stuff in the Med on the way out, at first with only one crew member wearing it at a time. After the first 2-hour trip, Florrie had pretty much collapsed from heat stroke; he had to be carried out of the aircraft and put on a saline drop in sick bay. I don't think they ever fully worked up; I think they decided that flying in a standard MS10 [Edit: MS10 is a bleedin' liferaft: try S10 respirator, Crisp!] would have to be good enough. It's not like the Lynx had an oxygen system anyway!

Did we really think we'd ever go to war with the Rooskies? I don't think I could ever really take it seriously, mostly because of the fact that I reckoned it would go nuclear pretty fast, and I simply couldn't see that happening. Proxy wars in Africa or the Middle East, sure - plus oddities like the Falklands, of course. But full-on Dr Strangelove? Maybe it's just hindsight talking, but I don't think I did. Like Debs, I never really worried about nukes; if we got to that point then we were all dead anyway. But Chemical and Biological scared the living cr*p out of me, because (as subsequent events proved) I thought some nut-case dictator might actually be stupid enough to use that stuff.

Having seen Thirteen Days and read the real-life files on which the film was based (it's about the Cuban missile crisis, if you haven't seen it), our era was infinitely more safe than the late-50s and early-60s. At that point there were Nut-Jobs like Curtis Lemay who genuinely thought that some nuclear wars were "winnable"; he was itching to strike first during Cuba, which makes the blood run cold. I was nearly 3 at the time, and if LeMay had hit his way, wouldn't have reached 4.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[woody37]

I need a lie down after reading your threads Edward

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

And FAA!

But I will confess, my immediate thought is that the RAF one is easier to do as a complete history by focusing on aircrew and operations. There's a lot more breadth to the roles of the Royal Navy during the Cold War. Always been fascinated by the Cod Wars.

You're forgiven! I knew what you meant.

Actually, the Fleet Air Arm is already quite well served for oral histories. Malcolm Smith, the FAA Museum archivist, edited several books along those lines around the time of the Century of Naval Aviation celebrations in 2009. There are 2 called "Voices in Flight", one covering the RNAS and the other the FAA from the 20s to the Cold War - both fascinating, but before the period you are interested in. Then there are two volumes called (see if you can guess...) "Fly Navy", which are much more Cold War centric; one edited by Charles Manning, subtitled "the view from the cockpit 1945-2000", and the other edited by John Beattie (display pilot extraordinaire) and Rick Jolly which does the same thing for Junglies.

The other rich seam for this kind of thing is the ever-expanding "... Boys" series (Buccaneer Boys, Victor Boys, etc.). I have read several of them. Some are better than others, but the 3 V-Bomber ones are particularly good, as is the Buccaneer one - oh, and our own Mr Fritag actually gets a mention in the Jaguar one (for crashing, obvs). There are also Phantom, 2 X Lightning, Hunter and Harrier volumes out, with a second Harrier one on the way. Nothing multi-engine or rotary yet, plus they have yet to dive into really dangerous things like Javelins, Vixens and Scimitars... but there's still time. Pretty much all of those are still available, according to Amazon. Indeed you can get a second-hand copy of Beatts' Jungly book for a princely 1 penny, according to Amazon.co.uk

Now, about this Valiant...

Edited October 20, 2015 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[tonyot]

While in Germany we were told that if the balloon did go up that Tactical Nukes would probably be used against us within 1-3 days depending on what level of opposition the Warsaw Pact forces ran into and that if it our little `speed bump' had not managed to stop them reaching the Channel within a week or two at the most then that was when it might go global with a pre-emptive strike followed by Armageddon! Not really what you want to hear when you joined up at 16 to see the world! I must have missed that leaflet in the recruiting office!

I thought NBC in the Navy was simply a case of close all the hatches and turn the deck sprays on!

NBC drills in the run up to Gulf War 1 accounted for far more allied casualties than the fighting itself due to the heat! NBC training in the desert was such a stupid idea and ordered by wooden headed officers and SNCO`s who still thought that they were exercising in the forests of Europe!

Tony

Edited October 20, 2015 by tonyot

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I thought NBC in the Navy was simply a case of close all the hatches and turn the deck sprays on!

You're right, it is. But then some muppet like me has to go outside and get airborne!

[Procopius]

Actually, the Fleet Air Arm is already quite well served for oral histories...

Cracking recommendations, thank you! I have several of the "Boys" books (Lightning Boys 1 and 2, and the Phantom, and Victor books on order -- I just ordered the Flightpath set so I can do one of the Victor B.1s under "Johnnie" Johnson's command in the 1950s); didn't know Fritag made the Jaguar book (and heartily glad I heard someone say it first while I was in the UK -- I normally say it "Jag-wire"), so I'll have to pick it up!

[CedB]

A great thread guys, really interesting to hear your memories... but Debs, do warn us if you're going to post another story like the pool one so that I can, er, make sure I'm 'biologically prepared' too - this will avoid further embarrassing mishaps when the laughter hits

[Fritag]

NBC prep is fascinating to me in the context of the Cold War...uh, while I have your attention, how many of you in the forces during that time thought war would be likely, and did you expect it to go nuclear?

I never thought the Cold War would get hot. Just couldn't see it happening. Not by the 80's.

But I also thought that it was bound to go nuclear if it did. Flexible response and all that. Tactical nukes abounded. Inevitable escalation.

I was on attack squadrons that deployed east in the event of war. We had 3 days of pre-prepped targets and I don't remember thinking that we'd be around for any more..........that said I didn't think my mum back home in Essex would survive either......

Edited October 20, 2015 by Fritag

[Col.]

I feel sorry for you lot having to don Noddy suits and go play in aeroplanes or jump into swimming pools once in a while. Oh, wait, no I don't. 'cause us lot wandering about on the ground had to spend all bloody day in the damned things and still 'fix' uncooperative Land Rovers that some other clown had broken or parked in a tree. Usually on the only unseasonably warm days that that would have been stinking hot in normal overalls far less while done up like a boil-in-the-bag fish.

In the early to mid 90s I certainly didn't give much thought to the potential for all-out nuclear war. There would have been a big flash and a loud bang and bugger all else after that. Anyone who survived that were the unlucky ones 'cause there would have been sod all left worth fighting for on either side and I mean that in every sense of the phrase. The C & B bits of NBC on the other hand did concern me - that stuff was just plain nasty and much more likely to be coming floating over my head from both sides of the battlefield with short and long term consequences to think about.

With that in mind, now I'll apologise to you and your fellow countrymen who grace this forum in advance for this statement Procopius, I was more concerned by the trigger-happy and frankly indiscriminate 'Yanks' I had the misfortune to deal with than what Ivan might throw in my direction. Genuine quote I clearly recall while listening to US personnel discussing battlefield tactics, "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out"

[Navy Bird]

My BSc is in medical biology/bichemistry so I have a good understanding of the effects of organophosphates upon the mammalian neurotransmission feedback loop. So to say that things like Sarin and VX terrify me would be an enormous understatement. It's a horrible (and very scarey) way to die.

And yet the chemotherapy that is saving my life was developed from mustard gas. Granted, not the same as Sarin or VX, but I find it fascianting, and a bit ironic, that something designed to kill people is now saving them. Who woulda thunk?

Cracking recommendations, thank you! I have several of the "Boys" books (Lightning Boys 1 and 2, and the Phantom, and Victor books on order -- I just ordered the Flightpath set so I can do one of the Victor B.1s under "Johnnie" Johnson's command in the 1950s); didn't know Fritag made the Jaguar book (and heartily glad I heard someone say it first while I was in the UK -- I normally say it "Jag-wire"), so I'll have to pick it up!

If you were saying "Jag-wire," I guess you weren't a fan of F1 or international sports car competition!

Cheers,

Bill

[tonyot]

With that in mind, now I'll apologise to you and your fellow countrymen who grace this forum in advance for this statement Procopius, I was more concerned by the trigger-happy and frankly indiscriminate 'Yanks' I had the misfortune to deal with than what Ivan might throw in my direction. Genuine quote I clearly recall while listening to US personnel discussing battlefield tactics, "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out"

Well said Col,........I agree with the above part too,.....I`ve heard similar.and my Tinnitus is caused by an American mortar bomb falling far too close for comfort!

Mind you the Mustard Gas which I came extremely close to was British and from WW1,....while digging up old stockpiles on a stores depot being sold off for housing! I was very glad of my respirator then. Horrible stuff in its day but nothing compared to the stuff both sides pitted against each other in the Cold War.

Cheers

Tony

Edited October 20, 2015 by tonyot

[perdu]

Digging hides in NBC was always real fun

(whoever said Bill tells no lies huh )

[beginning to wish we hadnt had this turn in the narrative, starting to dread dreams of KIP sheets and shovels now]

Back in the seventies I didn't quite expect it all to turn NBC, I've always had some kind of dumb faith in politicians being so venal they wouldnt want to spoil a good thing

Which they knew they were on to

But we had to do all that stupid stuff in Noddy Suits anyway

I'm happy now just to say "Been there, got the..."

(No I didn't hang on to the gloves even though they might have been useful)

I had Jaguar Boys as a birthday present a fortnight ago, such a good read the others are on the list for Chrimble

[Navy Bird]

With that in mind, now I'll apologise to you and your fellow countrymen who grace this forum in advance for this statement Procopius, I was more concerned by the trigger-happy and frankly indiscriminate 'Yanks' I had the misfortune to deal with than what Ivan might throw in my direction. Genuine quote I clearly recall while listening to US personnel discussing battlefield tactics, "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out"

No need to apologise, the saying originated with the French clergy during the Albigensian Crusade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

Cheers,

Bill

[Biggles87]

Thanks for sharing your memories everyone, some thought provoking comments amongst the hilarity.

I must put some of those books on my Christmas list.

[JasonC]

Agreed. Just to think there was a time not so long ago when I couldn't have ordered a book at 9pm, from the comfort of my sofa, after reading words written not two hours previously by someone across the country. Thank goodness for progress!

J.

[Col.]

Well said Col,........I agree with the above part too,.....I`ve heard similar.and my Tinnitus is caused by an American mortar bomb falling far too close for comfort!

Mind you the Mustard Gas which I came extremely close to was British and from WW1,....while digging up old stockpiles on a stores depot being sold off for housing! I was very glad of my respirator then. Horrible stuff in its day but nothing compared to the stuff both sides pitted against each other in the Cold War.

Cheers

Tony

Much as I don't want to turn this into an American bashing session mine comes courtesy of an Abrams crew Then again I have a few physical scars and several mental ones thanks to my interaction with people from other countries. Goes to prove something my Grandmother used to say, "There are idiots the world over".

Digging hides in NBC was always real fun

(whoever said Bill tells no lies huh )

[beginning to wish we hadnt had this turn in the narrative, starting to dread dreams of KIP sheets and shovels now]

Back in the seventies I didn't quite expect it all to turn NBC, I've always had some kind of dumb faith in politicians being so venal they wouldnt want to spoil a good thing

Which they knew they were on to

But we had to do all that stupid stuff in Noddy Suits anyway

I'm happy now just to say "Been there, got the..."

(No I didn't hang on to the gloves even though they might have been useful)

I had Jaguar Boys as a birthday present a fortnight ago, such a good read the others are on the list for Chrimble

Oh aye. The joy of digging a three-man grave, er I mean fire trench wearing that gear.

I swear the only reason we had to dig all those holes was so the winning side didn't have to spend so much time tiding away the leftovers

No need to apologise, the saying originated with the French clergy during the Crusades:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

Cheers,

Bill

Nice one Bill. At least we can find common ground and blame it on the French

Ahem, so, how's the Valiant coming along?

[tonyot]

Aye,.....we`ll put the sandbags back and stop swinging that lamp,......any more progress on the Valiant?

Sorry for going on so much!

Tony

[Ascoteer]

And yet the chemotherapy that is saving my life was developed from mustard gas. Granted, not the same as Sarin or VX, but I find it fascianting, and a bit ironic, that something designed to kill people is now saving them. Who woulda thunk?

Nitrogen and Sulphur mustards are alkylating agents. Ie they bind readily to DNA - one of the long term effects of exposure to Mustard Gas in WWI was cancer from cellular mutation caused by damage to the DNA. The stuff you are being exposed to Bill will be extremely mutative to DNA, especially to those cells undergoing rapid mitotic division (ie Cancer Cells), so mutative that it results in cellular death rather than cellular mutation.

I hope you are better soon Bill.