HK Lancaster ?.

[Simon Cornes]

21 hours ago, bzn20 said:

  I don't think they were . It was the British BSW , BSF , BA etc. and the USA were A/F Spanners , wrenches and sockets etc. The British Spanners , Sockets were thread sizes and the US  were A/F   they are measured across the flats in Imperial and still are including Airbus  ,doesn't matter what the thread size is . Never saw or needed a Metric tool kit until the Westland Lynx . I would kill for a Rolls tool kit .

I stand corrected!! You learn something new every day!! Thank you.

[Mancunian airman]

1 hour ago, Stealthman said:

I've seen some sprues although it was emphasised they could be subject to change......to be honest we aren't actually going to know for sure what's in the box until we can open one and see.

The 'Subject to change' relates to the skin surface of the aircraft itself. preview shots are of the test pieces and they appear smooth. In production they will show panels and rivets but as you stated, we wont know how this will appear until we open the box . . . 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Don149 said:

Correct me if I`m wrong , but doesn't the test shot above from Mancunian airman show the tail turret fairing someone said was not included ? .

Don

You are correct.

You can clearly see the fairing collar  in the test shot photo and I personally think it looks spot-on when compared to the real thing.

[Whitewolf]

2 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

I’m prepared to be flame grilled for this, but I’m sure that R5868 ‘S’ Sugar in the RAFM was rebuilt during her career, so part of the fuselage has windows and the rest doesn’t. I’ve read it somewhere, but can I find a photo......?!

 

One thing I know for sure is that operationally she had needle pointed props, but by the time she appeared at Hendon these has morphed into paddle blade types.

 

Trevor

From wartime pics of R5868, you're right about the props. Did have a pic of her on gate guardian duties at one point, need to check and see which props she had then. Haven't been to Hendon for a good while, but don"t recall her having any Fuselage Windows and pics of her in the museum on the net seem to bear that out.

[Max Headroom]

Here she is at Hendon 

 

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_R5868_at_RAF_Museum_London_Flickr_2224435347.jpg

 

Note the absence of windows - not just painted over. I have read somewhere that she had half a fuselage grafted on after being damaged?

 

This photo is captioned as being at Hendon but it looks more like Scampton

 

https://goo.gl/images/k9UbJ4

 

Wide props are present at this time. Maybe they had been replaced when withdrawn from use?

 

Trevor

[Mancunian airman]

I have a publication entitled ' A very Special Lancaster'  A history of Lancaster Mk. I R5868.

There is a photo dated June 1945 showing the paddle props.

The two colour profiles in the centre show her as Q-Queenie with fuselage windows. As S-Sugar they are not shown.

The refurbish photo taken in 1972 as she was being prepped for Hendon shows No fuselage window, just bare metal skins overall.

 

The text reads

"This proved to be its last operational trip (18th July) for several months. On recent flights increasing numbers of wing rivets had been popping and as the squadron was now in the process of converting to H2s it was an opportunity for repairs to be carried out.Towards the end of July Sugar was dismantled and on 3rd August  1944 left the squadron to be refurbished at A. V. Roe & Company. The full extent of this work is unknown, but it was not until 17th November that Sugar was ready for collection. It arrived back at Waddington to rejoin 467 on 3rd December looking resplendent in a new paint scheme and complete with four new Merlin 22 engines, H2S and Rebecca."

 

She had completed her 100th trip around the 11/12th May at which point she had pointed propeller tips.

ALthough if you look at the following Link you will see she had the paddle type when flying the EXODUS trips . . .

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s+for+sugar+lancaster&sa=X&rlz=1C1AFAB_enGB456GB538&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=2ahUKEwiX0ci3j7rdAhVCD8AKHcxwCO0QsAR6BAgCEAE&biw=1366&bih=653#imgrc=_

 

Photo from the net indicating that this official photo was taken prior to her 97th trip. I cannot see any fuselage windows ??

 

All the above is in the interest of producing an accurate HK model of S-Sugar

Edited September 14, 2018 by Mancunian airman

[Whitewolf]

Q Queenie was her original guise and also while she was a gate guardian. Not sure when she flew 97th trip? Prior to or after refurbishment at A V Roe? I woukd say new fuselage skins were probably fitted during refurbishment and Windows were removed. Woukd also suspect paddle blade props fitted at this time???

[Whitewolf]

Paddle blades fitted when on gate guardian in 1961 also painted S for Sugar. ( could have sworn it was Q Queenie) but getting old doesn't do much for memory 

[Mancunian airman]

23 minutes ago, Stealthman said:

Q Queenie was her original guise and also while she was a gate guardian. Not sure when she flew 97th trip? Prior to or after refurbishment at A V Roe? I woukd say new fuselage skins were probably fitted during refurbishment and Windows were removed. Woukd also suspect paddle blade props fitted at this time???

97th trip before the refurb

 

25 minutes ago, Stealthman said:

Paddle blades fitted when on gate guardian in 1961 also painted S for Sugar. ( could have sworn it was Q Queenie) but getting old doesn't do much for memory 

Paddle blades were fitted well before becoming Gate guardian. photo seen at the end of the war with them  . . .

[Whitewolf]

Well if HKM want you to be able to Build R5868 as she ended the war and as she is today, they would need to provide a No fuselage window option. In 1/32, just painting over them ain't gonna do it.

[fightersweep]

Stick in the windows, bit of filler around the frames....job done?

[Whitewolf]

10 hours ago, fightersweep said:

Stick in the windows, bit of filler around the frames....job done?

On a smaller model with far less detail - yes, but on a highly detailed 1/32? I don't think that's going to do it. Take a good look at the pics of R5868 as she is today, in particular the fuselage 'skin'.  This is metal that did not have cutouts for the Windows, stretched over the frames. If that detail is accurately reproduced in 1/32 then you are going to be able to see the 'filled In' Windows simply because of the physical appearance of the completely  flattened areas lacking any surface detail whatsoever. The bigger the model, the more you notice.........

The kit allows you to Build R5868 as Q Queenie, and probably as S Sugar prior to her re-furb at A V Roe, but it will not allow you to Build her as she is today. But perhaps that is the intention?? Hence more kits to be released? Perhaps minus fuselage Windows, with optional Martin mid-upper turrets and twin 50 cal tail turrets enabling you to Build late war Lancs, including markings for R5868 in her final configuration.

[Mancunian airman]

I get the impression from the artwork its going to be S-Sugar or Queenie.

The proposed 2nd choice of decals is a 460 Squadron aircraft G-George which is preserved in Australia.

 

You are correct of course about the larger scale, things are more noticeable and therefore greater care will be needed to eliminate the windows should there be a need . . . .

 

Of course there are already decals in 1/32nd for several Lancasters so research will be required to obtain the correct tech spec. for your choice of aircraft that matches what can be built from the kit.

Ian

Edited February 5, 2019 by Mancunian airman

[JohnT]

I can understand the speculation and concern expressed here as regards the options and whether HK will bring out other versions later.  I truly don't fancy taking a £300 plus model and filling windows all along the fuselage sides and hoping a) I get it right without screwing it all up and b) no one will notice the end product.

 

I also understand that manufacturers will want to keep their developments and new variants a commercial secret to avoid competitors stealing a march on them.

 

In this case though I really cant see anyone else bring out a 1/32 Lancaster in competition.  It would help us enthusiasts if HK could give an indication of their thinking in order to allow enthusiasts ( who I guess will be their main target buyer) to choose which variant they will spend the £300 plus on.  I cant see many modellers splashing out that sort of cash on an early Lanc, a late Lanc, a Grand Slam Lanc and a Dambuster !  On the other hand I have not checked my Euro lottery numbers yet and you are all on one each if I win £110 million windows or no windows. 

[Peter Roberts]

Curious co-incidence - I believe 'G' George also had a new rear fuselage grafted on.

 

Perhaps we need a kit with a separate rear fuselage as well?

 

PR

[Sonoran]

4 hours ago, JohnT said:

It would help us enthusiasts if HK could give an indication of their thinking in order to allow enthusiasts ( who I guess will be their main target buyer) to choose which variant they will spend the £300 plus on.

Patience grasshopper.  HK doesn’t have a history of making such announcements, and there’s no reason to think they’re going to start now.  Once the kit is on the street, you’ll know.

[JohnT]

18 hours ago, Sonoran said:

Patience grasshopper.  HK doesn’t have a history of making such announcements, and there’s no reason to think they’re going to start now.  Once the kit is on the street, you’ll know.

Patience ?  With the stakes up at a 1/32 Lancaster ?  😁 Now you are asking for the impossible. 

[Max Headroom]

23 hours ago, JohnT said:

On the other hand I have not checked my Euro lottery numbers yet and you are all on one each if I win £110 million windows or no windows. 

I take that as a Binding Contract. Shall I pm you my addy????

 

Trevor the very grateful

[Troy Smith]

On 14/9/2018 at 13:11, Mancunian airman said:

97th trip before the refurb

 

Paddle blades were fitted well before becoming Gate guardian. photo seen at the end of the war with them  . . .

 

Youtube clip on completing 100th

needle props

 

Lancaster party, 1944. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

Quote

Members of No 467 Squadron, Royal Australian Air Force celebrate the completion of 100 operations by the Avro Lancaster R5868/`PO-S' (S for Sugar) after its sortie on 11 - 12 May 1944 to a communications target in Belgium. Below the cockpit of the Lancaster are the emblems indicating the number of operational flights and the award of three DSOs and two DFCs to crew members.

 

since on a quick look I can't see this

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/74-A-12-Avro-Lancaster-R5868.pdf

 

very extensive history, may not give info on windows and props but plenty of crew recollections, 

also lists various photo and what publications they were in.

 

this maybe of of interest to the discussion

Quote

18/19 Jul 44

Mainplane damaged during night attack on railway yards at Revigny in
Northern France - medium flak and 126 rivets popped in starboard mainplane
according to Johnson logbook. At first repairs not thought feasible but later
carried out.
Pilot F/O Johnson Flight time 5 hours 7 minutes. Bomb load 13 x1000 l
with 12 hour delayed fuse and 4 x 500 lb also with 12 hour fuse. (116)
On recent flights increasing numbers of wing rivets had been popping and as
the squadron was now in the process of converting to H2S it was an
opportune time for repairs to be carried out.
At the time it was thought Sugar was unlikely to be returning to operational
flying ,as indicated in a contemporary press release;
‘S-Sugar, the famous veteran Lancaster of RAF Bomber Command, which
was the first heavy bomber to complete 100 war flights, is unlikely to fly
again on operations. On her last, and 114th flight to bomb the railway yards
at Revigny in Northern France, on July 18th, Sugars mainplane was damaged
and repairs are not considered feasible. When Sugar was on its way to
Revigny, an enemy fighter was observed closing rapidly at 2000 yards range.
Evasive action was taken, and the fighter broke away at 700 yards. ’I thought
we had been hit in the starboard wing’ said the pilot F/O M.G.Johnson of
Geelong, Victoria ‘but afterwards I found that the noise I had heard was the
springing of rivets.
We went on to the target, all the same, and we not only
Bombed, but obtained a photograph of the aiming point at the moment of
bombing. On the way home we were approached a second time, by a Bf
109.But this fighter sheered off without firing a shot, after our rear gunner had
given it several short bursts. We reached base with the rest of our squadron,
though we had started ten minutes after them’. One account records 128
popped rivets on this occasion.

03 Aug 44

Following dismantling by a team including Corporal H Smith (See Daily
Mail, 5 February 2003), despatched for repair in works (probably
Bracebridge, close to Waddington) by A.V.Roe.
The aircraft was inspected by A.I.D Inspector Mr. William Bell, who
categorised it as recommended for repair, despite the fuselage skin being
very wrinkled where it adjoined the bomb bay floor, but there was no major
structural damage – see file letters, 14 Feb 2002 and 18 Feb 2002.
Photo of nose section at around this time after c.114 sorties - Lancaster-
Classic Aircraft No.6 (006969), also Daily Mail 5 February 2003, with Cpl
H.Smith i/c the working party that dismantled the aircraft. Also Lancaster
Squadrons Special edition (Postlethwaite 2012)

17 Nov 44

Awaiting collection. Had been repainted and given four new Merlin 22
engines. Extent of other repairs not known other than the fitting of H2S
and the fitting of the ‘Rebecca’ navigation aid.

03 Dec 44

Returned to No. 467 Squadron at Waddington. During ‘Sugars’ absence
Lancaster NF910 was coded PO-S, becoming PO-Q when R5868
returned.
Acceptance flight on this date by Air Commodore D Bonham-Carter DFC.
His crew included Wing Cdr Day and S/L McCabe, both engineer officers.
In his letter of 4 May 1971 Air Commodore Bonham-Carter commented
‘S for Sugar finished the war as a rather different Lanc to that of the start of
its career. At one stage it was given a new fuselage, retaining the original
wing. Later new wings were fitted!’
Photo of Sugar in late 1944 - Bomber Squadrons of the RAF p.260. Some
time between this date and February 1945, ‘Sugar’ was given a yellow outline
to her fuselage code letters, a practice which began for 5 Group aircraft in late
August 1944.

 

On 14/9/2018 at 12:39, Stealthman said:

Q Queenie was her original guise and also while she was a gate guardian. Not sure when she flew 97th trip? Prior to or after refurbishment at A V Roe? I woukd say new fuselage skins were probably fitted during refurbishment and Windows were removed. Woukd also suspect paddle blade props fitted at this time???

 

On 14/9/2018 at 12:44, Stealthman said:

Paddle blades fitted when on gate guardian in 1961 also painted S for Sugar. ( could have sworn it was Q Queenie) but getting old doesn't do much for memory 

 

Quote

Oct 1960

Vulcan equipped No 83 Squadron returned to Scampton; when it was
realised that Sugar had such strong links with the station and unit the No 467
Squadron codes were replaced by the original No 83 Squadron markings as
OL - Q. Around this time the aircraft was moved back slightly as it was
supposedly a traffic hazard to vehicles on the A.15 road.

 

 

shame the pdf doesn't reproduce all the photos mentioned,. but it looks as if there is enough of a spread to determine when the paddle blade props were fitted.

 

one final point re current state

Quote

24 Nov 70

Moved to No 71 MU Bicester for refurbishing - left Scampton the previous
day on 8 Queen Mary trailers. Heavily corroded, especially in the wings and
toilet area.
Stripped by painters from St.Athan and given anti-corrosion treatment;
interior repainted; control surfaces recovered by a team from No 27MU
Shawbury. Engines steam washed;
New perspex panels made for canopy and turrets using wooden box formers
with domestic type heaters heating the Perspex until it formed the required
shape, and replacement astrodome used from a Shackleton; mock-up H2S
radome produced at Bicester. For details see ‘Ever Better – the history of 71
Mu (Wise 2003)-
Restoration team led successively by Chief Tech Henry, Sgt Thomason and
Ct Stanley
During restoration the front turret yielded a clip of 3 bullets dated 1941.
All wood and perspex parts were replaced. Photos during restoration – Air
Classics Quarterly Review Summer 1976 p.55.
Photo assembled at Bicester - RAF News W/E

 

HTH

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Troy Smith
tidy up

[Whitewolf]

Interesting to note HK box illustration for B111 shows R5868 with yellow outlines on Fuselage Codes - applied in 1945 post AV Roe refurbishment! An indication perhaps that another kit Minus fuselage Windows will be issued.......

[Sonoran]

16 hours ago, Stealthman said:

An indication perhaps that another kit Minus fuselage Windows will be issued.......

 

I’m not sure I would make that leap.  Tooling an entirely separate fuselage without windows would be *enormously* expensiive for an already ****enormously**** expensive set of tooling.

[Whitewolf]

Possibly, possibly not. It's cheaper to remove them from a mould than it is to add them. And if is a Ltd production run on the B1 it could be done. 

[Sonoran]

You're making a big leap in logic there.  I wouldn't be holding my breath until HK does two separate rear fuselages.

[Admiral Puff]

Mine's planned to be a Lancastrian - no prizes for guessing which version I'd prefer ...

[Whitewolf]

On 9/24/2018 at 3:50 PM, Sonoran said:

You're making a big leap in logic there.  I wouldn't be holding my breath until HK does two separate rear fuselages.

They've already done clear fuselages to be included in the first boxings. If it's planned right, HK could surprise everyone by producing options for differing versions. 

[Sonoran]

The color of plastic shot into the mold has nothing to do with creating a completely new fuselage mold.

 

Yes, "if" "if" "if".  But the reality isn't "if".